BBloody hell, put up a thread and watch'em post!
Thanks for the tone of the posts here. A bit different from the attacks I copped for trying to post some information on the huts thread.
Toad, on page 1 of the thread, yes, I'm opposed to cattle in the high country. The link I posted is to a bibliography of peer reviewed scientific papers over the best part of 60 years, the overwhelming weight of which shows an absence of evidence that grazing reduces / minimises fire risk.
Of course this grazing has a 'romantic' image, however in reality it is nothing more than a few local farmers being able to run more cattle than would be the case if they were limited to their private farm land. In short, a minority of farmers get an advantage over others who don't have access to cheap alpine grazing.
Redback summed it up well – cattle don’t eat leaf litter, so they can’t do much to reduce fuel load in the treed areas.
As to the title of the thread:
I have met a number of MySwagers, and am happy to be judged by how they found me. However, in my opinion what was thrown at me by one poster on the Huts thread is nothing short of ‘dog whistling’. Here is what I mean.
What I posted:
Vallejo Gantner Hut. He was a bushwalker / ski tourer, can't remember which. Gets damn cold there in winter - have built and slept in an 'igloo' there.
The one problem there is that water must be boiled because of cattle nematodes in the water. (Nematodes end up in your BRAIN they are both invisible and dangerous. Don't let kids drink from the supply if you are there.)
Cattlemen have a romantic historic image, but cattle have caused significant environmental damage.
FWI, I would’ve thught that a commnt about the water there, and th need to boil it, was on-topic.
I also responded to a post from Speewa asserrting that grazing reduced the risk of fire. I indicated that to my understanding is that the evidence is to the contrary, and also explained why carrying heaps of water / fuel to boil contaminated water is impractical.
None of my posts or responses from others had been abusive and exchanges had been conducted in a positive spirit – but then it wasn’t the 12 volt thread!
These attacks then followed 24 hours later: (my rebuttal in italics.)
Barry
I call BS on your claim ... You've been greenwashed
(,I or anyone, should give a damn about what you ‘call’ WHY? And what is ‘greenwashed’, other than a bit of BS name calling on your part?)
It's actually the unhygenic disposal (or lack thereof) of human fecal matter that will make you sick up there.
(Feacal bacteria will make you sick anywhere. I did NOT say the water would “make you sick”. What I was talking about is not bacterial, it does not “make you sick”, it is an organism, is largely a-symptomatic, i.e. no symptoms, and takes significant time for the effect of its paristism to appear.
Oh, almost forgot, where is the proof that it is feacal contamination that is the problem with te water supply at Macalister Springs?)
Most of Australia has cattle within drinking water catchments and I haven't seen this one popping up on ACA or TT every fortnight or so with sensationalised headlines to warn the unsuspecting public.
(My apologies, wasn’t aware that being reported on A Current Affair / Today Tonight had become the legal definition what makes an issue legitimate. Wouldn’t matter much though would it, as you say that these programs are “sensationalised”, so either of them reporting something you disagree with would hardly convince you anyway, would it?)
Have a think about it and stop spreading your rubbish
(Think about what, that I don’t rely on ACA / TT as the fonts of all knowledge? Or that you say I am ‘spreading rubbish’?)
Thanx
Stevo
Barry where is this "Heaps of evidence"
(A link to a bibliography of scientific articles is at the start of this thread. Easy to find on the web, why did you need to ask?)
and regarding the quality of water ... please tell your bushwalking buddies the to follow the basics regarding disposal of their own wastes and then everyone will be able to use the water … (Why not my bike riding / 4X4 driving / camper trailer towing ‘buddies’ as well? Are you from the USA, most Ausies I know would refer to their ‘mates’, not “buddies”. Oh, I get it, bushwalking is ‘un Australian’, so you refer to them by a non-Australian term. What a clever bit of dog whistling!) ... nothing to do with the cattle (and you have what proof of this? Where is YOUR evidence?) unfortuately for those spreading the lies (Now anyone who express a belief that cattle are responsible for water pollution at Macalister Springs are lying? On what basis do you call me a liar? )
you really have been greenwashed (so your claim regarding this in the previous post was wrong, but now it is not? What changed, apart from the fact that I expressed an opinion different to you for the second time.)
Thanx Barry, for your unnecessary response.
Namecalling I called you Barry in both posts and called you nothing else.
(You called me ‘Liar’, lumped me in the un-Australian named group of ‘bushwalking buddies’, and repeatedly referred to me as ‘greenwashed’.)
I resisted the urge to respond to your posts earlier in the hope they would be moderated as irrelevant to the topic,
(so, OK to comment on anything about huts, other than the need to boil water?) unsubstantiated (you didn’t like what evidence I posted) and devisive (I disagreed with what you believe) but after a few days I was unable to let the posts stand unchallenged. (So, the mods should take down down whatever you disagree with 48 hours? What makes you the arbiter?)
Thats how this Greenwashing works ... enough people say it and it becomes fact ... as shown in your post
(More to the point, Dog Whistling works by disparaging people who are different to you, enjoy recreational activities that you don’t, and accusing them of ulterior motives, and without any evidence of your own, accusing them of lying.)
The maps aren't evidence and don't say why the water needs to be boiled - certainly not scientific. (They are certainly evidence that it needed to be boiled, and also that it had not been thought similarly necessary to provide similar warnings for other camp sites.)
which is why your buddies thought it wouldn't effect anyone (presumably you mean walkers in general)...
also less knowledge on the impacts and effects of bad hygiene (Ignorance of the the effects of bad hygiene in 1975, really? Where is your evidence for that? )
It was undrinkable in other places as well ..(Where? On what evidence?)
same argument could be used regarding these "nematodes" and cattle (Why? If the water made people ‘sick’ it would probably be feacal bacteria. As previosly stated, becoming sick is not the problem with nematodes. Nematodes are only introduced by previously infected stock.)
"Bush telegraph" (So, an interview with athe relevant Federal Minister on Radio National, in which he cites the findings of peer reviewed scientific research is not good enough, presumably ACA / TT would be OK though, judging by your previous comments.)
and "Alps at the crossroads" certainly wouldn't pass for scientific evidence (however, it cites plenty scientific evidence including longitudinal studies).
I own a copy of "Alps at the crossroads" and if you've read it like you read my namecalling posts (what, Liar, etc?) I'm not surprised by the conclusions you've drawn.
Coming from a background like yours (which is? … dog whistle) with the "them vs us" mentality (evidence? … dog whistle) of a junior employee on the Dept Crown lands and survey, (dog whistle: public servant = anti-cattlemen) I can see that yourr position is not evidence based anyway.
(That’s right, I was merely in the position to read the correspondence on the files first hand. Those letters are what is known as ‘primary evidence’. Ssome cattlemen were notorious for disregarding requirements of grazing licences. The files went back years, presumably they are now all archived. They should all still be accesable to any enquiry, however.)
Hopefully all these posts can be deleteted as irrelevant to the thread and if you'd wish to discuss it further please start a separate thread and I'll happily discuss there.
Stevo
