Author Topic: EpiPen - Not so expensive...  (Read 13995 times)

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Offline Fivid

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EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« on: February 07, 2011, 12:31:23 PM »
Who caries (or should carry) an EpiPen in their first aid kit?  Between us we have a couple of allergies and I have recently developed a bit of an allergy to peanuts.  Given that quite often we go away to hard to get to places and do trips such as our upcoming trip through the Simpson Desert we thought about getting an EpiPen "Just in case".  I had heard these things were around $120 and have a 12 month life expectancy.  We asked in the chemist last week and the cost is $99.95 to purchase across the counter, they then advised we should be able to claim some back from health insurance and that if we get a Dr to give us a prescription then it will cost next to nothing out of pocket.  The one we looked at had an expiry date of July 2012 so about 18 months before replacement.
I thought I would just share this info as some people may be put off by the cost of one of these potential life savers but it really doesn't have to cost so much after all.
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Offline JCOJ

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 12:38:46 PM »
Our son is allergic to peanuts and we have to carry an Epipen everywhere we go with him.  Touch wood we don't haven't had to use it as yet!!

Thanks for the info - I think we will be getting it through prescription from now on.  :cheers:

Offline Ben...

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 01:00:38 PM »
might not even need a script to claim it back, check with the provider often the chemiest invoice is enough.
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Offline festy

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 03:07:11 PM »
You can only claim something like two a year, any extras are full price.
Two just isn't enough for a child - we carry two with us everywhere, there's one left at school, another at each of the grandparent's places...
And if you're doing any remote traveling, you need to take a few with you. If you're more than 30 minutes from medical assistance you may need to re-administer additional doses on the way, and epipens are single use.

We looked into the expiry dates, and they are still ok to use after they expire - they just may not be as effective.
So don't throw the expired ones out, they're worth holding onto for a while afterward as a backup. We were told that an old epipen is better than no epipen.

We've also got some adrenalin vials and syringes in our 1st aid kit as a last resort - not as convenient as an epipen, but small and cheap.

We also looked into buying a carton of epipens a while ago, and they were much more reasonably priced in bulk.
Maybe a group buy is in order?  ;D

Offline Paul and Bern

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 04:06:35 PM »
 ??? Does an epipen do all major allergies? or are they for a specific type ie peanuts, bee sting, etc
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Offline holycrapola

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 04:25:03 PM »
Personally I wouldnt be using an EpiPen without medical advice. If you administer adrenaline you need to be checked out afterwards.... ???
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Offline dazzler

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 04:29:05 PM »
I carry four for my anaphylaxis.  Two are current and two are recently expired (still clear in the window).  I have used mine on three occasions and had to use a second one a short while after the first.

What was interesting (worrying maybe) is that when you use it you shake so violently that you cant do anything during that phase.  You also need to go straight to hospital and be monitored for eight hours afterwards. If I was going anywhere remote I would take at least four epipens and an epirb.  You would need to use the epirb/flying doctors radio as soon as you are about to inject to give rescuers the best chance.  Though if the pens dont work I think you are probably done for.

Normally pay $30 for each and make sure the expiry is long.  To get the four I tell the doctor I used two when I was camping and couldnt go to hospital. I think she knows the truth.

If you end up in hospital and still need adrenaline make sure they dont inject it into a canular if they have put a line in.  They did this to me in A and E but luckily each time the heart rate went up they stopped injecting.  Otherwise I would be dead - and who is going to fight against excess use of tread plate on CT's then?  ;D

I am not sure about carrying one just in case.  You could kill someone with one - I cant remember if your heart rate or blood pressure goes through the ceiling, but the numbers on the beeping machine in the ER go crazy  :D
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Offline Fivid

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2011, 05:00:06 PM »
Some interesting info.  Dazzler, sounds like you had a rough trot... 

We don't plan on buying one to use for just any old reason, the Dr told me I should have one for peanut allergy if going anywhere that medical help isn't readily available but have spoken with other people who have been advised by a Dr to carry them and people don't because they think they are expensive and don't last long.  I was surprised about the health insurance and medicare rebate if you have a prescription.  By the time medicare pays their bit and we claim the balance on health insurance our out of pocket cost will be minimal.  Mind you, $100 if it is going to save your life is cheap also.  We pay lots more than that just to insure a car so we can get it repaired / replaced if the worst should happen.
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Offline DeLuxHiLux

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 09:43:11 AM »
Ok. Seeing as this is kinda in my field of non camping expertise, as well as being an issue for me as my eldest is allergic to tree nuts (peanuts etc) I'll wade in here.

EpiPen (Or epinephine Pen - Epinephrine being the American term for Adrenaline), are great for known allergy sufferers, and whenever they are used should ALWAYS be follow by a trip to the local ED/A&E/Primary Care clinic/Vet (ok, maybe not Vet!  ;D ) because the side effects of Adrenaline administration include : Increased Heart Rate, Increased Blood Pressue, blurred vision, shaking, headache, nausea, and a bunch of other stuff. Most importantly, for those of us approaching Grey Nomad status, these things i just mentioned, can cause other complications as our medical history becomes more, shall we say......interesting. these include Heart Attack and stroke! No something you want to expereince on the Gibb River rd, many hours from anywhere!

In kids, it is unlikely that using an epipen will cause any issues: Kids are resiliant, and can cope with huge changes in their physiological state for short period with little effect. but it doesnt matter whether you are old or young, you can still POTENTIALLY give someone a stroke by given an Epipen if it wasnt neccessary.

Do I carry one? No I carry Adrenaline ampoules because I'm trained to use them and would give a weight specific dose (which is what i would do at work) and it means I have more than 1 dose available. would i recommend this practice to anyone who is not a Health Care Professional ? HELL NO! USe the EpiPen! they are safe and effective when used properly. though the advice to have more than one is sound if you are more than 30 minutes from Medical attention.

Paul and Bern: Epipen works for Anaphylaxis, which in laymans terms is severe allergic reaction. this reaction can be to many things, foods (such as nuts, shellfish etc but i've seen some wierd ones like Peas, Rosemary,Egg etc), stings and envemonations such as bees and wasps, ants and the like. even trees and plants can cause it in some people

another good thing to carry if travelling remotely is a potent Antihistamine such as Phenergan (available without prescription at a pharmacy, though they sometimes get a little pissy when you ask for it, explain why you need it and they are usually ok). Adrenaline has a body half life of around 1-2 minutes when given by epipen (Intramuscularly) but should not be given less than 5 minutes apart. An antihistamine taken orally can help, so can a Steroid such as rediPred. If you or a loved one suffer severe allergies and are travelling in areas more than 1 hour from medical attention, I'd disucss whether you should carry a steroid medicaion with your GP. they dont start working for 30 or more  minutes, but that could just be the difference between being ok, and not being ok. Though sometimes the allergy can make you so nauseous that the last thing you want to do is swallow anything, the Adrenalin can cauuse these symptoms to pass long enough to take the tablets/liquid. If you have been bitten by an ant or stung by a bee, the "venom" doesn't get out of your system quickly, so a long term meidication is a good idea.

Dazzler: They may use small incremental IV adrenaline (much smaller doses than into your muscle by epipen) if your anaphylaxis was severe and they are having trouble maintaining your bloodpressure. Unfortunatley, the main 2 side effects of adrenaline anr increased Heart  Rate (as evidenced by th erapidlt beeping machine) and Increaed Blood Pressure, which may have been the desired effect in your case but i wasnt there, but that would be the most likely reason to keep giving you adrenaline. 

that being said,  remember, the body naturally secretes Adrenaline during the fight or flight response to stressful situations, so all sorts of reactions are likely. shaking, headache, blurred vision (because pupils get very large), increased heart rate etc, AND a sense of impending doom. These are normal and scare the sh1t out of the person who gets the adrenaline Via epiPen. as if they aren't scared enough, the cure to their problem makes them more scared!!  If you are about to give adrenaline, especially to a child, the most important thing you can do is 1: Atmept to stay calm yourself, it's contagious!, and 2. reassure them !!

Holycrapplo: exactly:Adrenaline is not a medication to be used lightly. It's not Panadol. The most common mistake people make with EpiPen is injecting themselves in the finger because they hold it the wrong way around! You need to be shown how to use it, and reading the instructions, while being worried about your friend or family membes is having a severe reaction is not the time you are likely to be thinking clearest. Seek advice from your GP or pharmacist.

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Offline Burnsy

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 10:32:06 AM »
Important to note that there is an adult and child size epipen so check with your GP about which one you need for your family (or two if you have little ones and big ones?).
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Offline Patr80l

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 10:55:00 AM »
I know a little about this too. I am a doctor and I also teach first aid, including the treatment of anaphylaxis and use of the EpiPen.
Adrenalin in any form is an S3 medication. That means that you can buy it from the chemist without a script.   Epipens costs around $100+.   Adrenalin in an ampoule is dirt cheap.
The Epipen is subsidized by the government via the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) with certain conditions.   In order to access what is basically an insurance scheme it needs to be prescribed by a specialist (Allergist or Paediatrician) in the first instance for someone with a definite history of anaphylaxis (ie a defined severe allergic reaction), as part of an overall anaphylaxis management plan.   Its not just for allergy in general.   GP's can write a script, but only to replace used pens (at any time) or out of date stock (once a year).   With the PBS subsidy the out of pocket expense is around $30 (or around $6-7? with a Health Care Card).   If you lie to the doctor you are committing insurance fraud.   Private health funds can pay for items not included in the PBS, but they still require a script (eg a private health fund will pay for panadol, but only if prescribed by the doctor).    I don't think you can claim from both medicare and the private fund for the same item.
If you want extra pens, you can buy them but the government has chosen not to pay for these.   At some of the schools where I teach first aid they have bought extras, in case a child has left theirs at home or needs a second dose.   But this is not part of the PBS.   You might say "but it might save a life so it should be covered".   I don't expect the tax payer to pay for my fire extinguisher.  Same thing. 

Fivid, they are not for people with a history of allergy "just in case" and as said above, you cant "just" get a script from the doctor.   I hate it when chemists make the patients think its just a rubber stamp formality.   (unfortunately the doctors are the gatekeepers to the PBS insurance scheme and can be accused of "medi-fraud" and face disciplinary action if they dont follow the strict rules.)    Epipens are prescribed to someone who has had anaphylaxis in the past and who has sat down with their specialist to formulate a plan of management.   Adrenalin can, of course, be used for the very first episode of anaphylaxis but that should only be by someone with training.   I would not agree with adrenalin being carried by someone without training and/or experience.   (eg OK for someone like Dazzler who would be able to diagnose a first episode of anaphylaxis in a fellow traveller and know how to administer one of his own pens.)

Dazzler, normally adrenaline WOULD be given IV in the ED but it is diluted compared to the strength given IM via the EpiPen.   I hope they didn't give you the wrong strength.   Generally, and especially with the IM dose seen from one or two EpiPens, the side effects of stinging at the injection site, racing heart, palpitations and shakes and tremors are uncomfortable but not dangerous. 
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Offline EFIwindsor

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2011, 03:46:50 PM »
Typical ED treatment.

Commonly used antihistamines are:
Phenergan
Loratadine
Ranitadine

With a Steroid
Prednisone (oral)
Hydrocortisone (IV)

and usually only in severe cases with airway swelling/involvment and/or hypotension (Low BP) is adrenoline used. IM prefered but if serious enough IV. as mentioned earlier dosing/strength is different.

Followed up by a 6-8hr stay for observation if symptoms respond to treatment.

Probably not the best item to just have handy in your first aid kit unless you have a known fairly severe allergy.
 
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Offline Fivid

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 07:59:19 PM »
well we have just changed GPs as we were not happy and could not understand the one who purchased the practice we used to go to.  Will have to ask the new GP.  I used to have heaps of allergies and had a desensitisation course of injections over 3 years and am much better however I used to be able to eat peanuts and a couple of years ago started having bad reactions, as in unable to breath...  SImilar to egg white reaction I have.  The old GP told me an EpiPen would be good to have but never prescribed it which is why when I inquired at the chemist I was surprised to find it could be.

Anyway, very interesting to hear others views and will consult our GP prior to making any decisions...Thanks for the info.

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Offline SteveandViv

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2011, 11:30:16 AM »
Well I also like to carry two just in case. No I do not and neither do my family have any severe reactions to nay thing we know of however. Up here we swim with Jelly fish that can kill you and we are quite often away from help as we camp a lot in remote (really remote) areas. I would say though I also carry a Sat phone and would always contact help if I need to use it. We also carry other schedule 8 drugs just in case (Morphine & Oxycontin) We don't use it unless necessary and for us that has been never but we did come across a biker in the Simpson with a broken leg and was he glad we had it with us..

I would rather take a chance with an Epi-Pen if my children could not breath due to severe stinging than watch them and have done nothing
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Offline Patr80l

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2011, 12:19:41 PM »
Well I also like to carry two just in case. No I do not and neither do my family have any severe reactions to nay thing we know of however. Up here we swim with Jelly fish that can kill you and we are quite often away from help as we camp a lot in remote (really remote) areas. I would say though I also carry a Sat phone and would always contact help if I need to use it. We also carry other schedule 8 drugs just in case (Morphine & Oxycontin) We don't use it unless necessary and for us that has been never but we did come across a biker in the Simpson with a broken leg and was he glad we had it with us..

I would rather take a chance with an Epi-Pen if my children could not breath due to severe stinging than watch them and have done nothing


Adrenaline is not the treatment for jelly fish stings or breathing problems in general.   Although adrenaline is a safe drug to use, using any drug or treatment "because its better than watching and doing nothing" is not a good reason to use it.   You may make things worse, especially if you are using something outside of the guidlines.
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Offline SteveandViv

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2011, 12:34:37 PM »

Adrenaline is not the treatment for jelly fish stings or breathing problems in general.   Although adrenaline is a safe drug to use, using any drug or treatment "because its better than watching and doing nothing" is not a good reason to use it.   You may make things worse, especially if you are using something outside of the guidlines.


Yes I understand that but please read the post where I say I would call for advice..

I would not use it unless directed and as the hospital up here do have to use the pens for stings as the jelly fish cause sever reactions to airways I would prefer to be safe. Also I wasn't trying to be specific to that use but more for the *in case* scenario.

So to be clear. I would always use under advice - OK
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Offline Patr80l

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2011, 12:39:56 PM »
well we have just changed GPs as we were not happy and could not understand the one who purchased the practice we used to go to.  Will have to ask the new GP.  I used to have heaps of allergies and had a desensitisation course of injections over 3 years and am much better however I used to be able to eat peanuts and a couple of years ago started having bad reactions, as in unable to breath...  SImilar to egg white reaction I have.  The old GP told me an EpiPen would be good to have but never prescribed it which is why when I inquired at the chemist I was surprised to find it could be.

Anyway, very interesting to hear others views and will consult our GP prior to making any decisions...Thanks for the info.

 :cheers:
Dave


Being unable to breath sounds like you might have suffered from anaphylaxis, although the doctor would require more info.   You may qualify for a PBS script.
A GP cannot write the first (PBS) script for EpiPen.   You need to see a specialist.   Outside of the PBS you don't need a script.
When the doctor prescribes it he/she will tell you how and when to use it.  
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Offline Patr80l

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2011, 01:01:36 PM »
Yes I understand that but please read the post where I say I would call for advice..

I would not use it unless directed and as the hospital up here do have to use the pens for stings as the jelly fish cause sever reactions to airways I would prefer to be safe. Also I wasn't trying to be specific to that use but more for the *in case* scenario.

So to be clear. I would always use under advice - OK

Fair enough.   Common sense prevails.   Sorry for being a bit pedantic and a bit snappy.   (and yes, adrenaline might help if there is swelling of the airway)  
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Offline Foo

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2011, 02:14:09 PM »
I am allergic to Bee and Wasp stings, raw peanuts, raw oysters and high iodine levels. Never used to be allergic to any of these things, then one day bang, cop this human. :'(

Yet I can eat the peanuts, smoked, roast, boiled. The same with the oysters and the prawns so long as they cause my lips to tingle!

I take 3-4 claratyne if I get stung and this seems to keep the racing heart, breathing and mongrel rash under control. :)
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Offline dazzler

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2011, 04:15:41 PM »
Then onset of my anaphylaxis was really strange.  Since I was a kid I would often get chronic seasonal hayfever - sneezing, watery eyes with strings of pollen in them - and used usual anti hayfever tablets and drops etc.

Anyways, when I was 42 I was loading the skid steer onto the tipper in a field of ryegrass and had a big reaction.  Took a dose of rhinocourt spray and some drops in my eyes.  Still didnt fix it so after 30min I took another dose of rhinocourt.  Things started to spiral.  Throat was sore and breathing was difficult.  If I breathed in heavily my uvula would jam in my throat.

So what did I do?  Call an ambulance or drive to the hospital.........drove to the hospital of course!..

Half way I could only breath by leaning forward so the uvula would fall forward not back which made driving difficult. Worse was I couldnt talk so the window for the ambulance call was gone.  Just made it to the hospital and all was fine after a while.

After that every now and then I would get a mild reverberting shake in the body.  My wife would notice it in bed. The strange thing was what would set off the anaphylaxis (anywhere in the body).  Once I got bitten by a mozzie on my right thumb and the right hand swelled up, then it went down and the left hand swelled up.  Another time my ass cheeks swelled up (halted my cosmo photoshoot).  The tongue would swell up on one side but not the other. If I hit my finger with a hammer the whole hand would swell. The uvula was the worst though.  It would just start swelling and could only bring it down with adrenelin.  

I also had knee surgery and my head exploded to the extent that family couldnt identify me in Emergency.  ;D

What was worse was if I had two beers I would puke like a drunk.   :'(    I have found that I can have two german wheatbeers without chucking so that is good.

After heaps of tests a specialist in newcastle diagnosed the issue as an intolerance to salicylates which are common in lots of foods (tomatoes, vegies, preservatives and colours).  Apparently if the levels in the body increase too far then an allergic reaction can be triggered and an injury can be the catalyst.  Lucky compared to most as I have some control over it unlike peanut allergies etc.  We use a recipe book by Sue Dengate for allergies.

I had a call from the specialist last year and they have found a link that if you take a zertec tablet each day it keeps the reactions at bay.  So far just one episode this year.  :cheers:
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Offline SteveandViv

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2011, 04:29:54 PM »
That's just weird that stuff like that happens after so long.. just goes to show you can't be to careful. Glad you found a way to control it, bet you are too.
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Offline Fivid

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2011, 04:30:51 PM »
Geez Dazzler you do cop it rough.
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Offline bungie

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2011, 06:30:29 PM »
It was touched on lightly early in the post, but when using an EpiPen you must use it with a closed fist. Meaning that all your fingers and your thumb wrap around the tube. Lots of people have tried to fire the EpiPen with their thumb on the end. If you have it like that and have the pen back to front the pressure from your thumb as you "punch" the patent with trigger the pen and stab you, very funny until you realise the only pen has just gone in the the person and the patent dies. If you carry one, please ensure everybody know show to use it, even the person with the allergy as they may need to do it themselves.

Offline Burnsy

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2011, 08:04:07 PM »
Interesting that your allergies got worse daz - but not so good. 

I have had a seafood allergy all my life, all seafood, if I eat carrot cut with a knife that just cut fish and I have cracked lips my lips will swell.  If I put it on a cut it will become infalmed, eat it and I puke.  More recently I seem to be coming more sensitive to it, either that or restaurants are getting more lax with their food handling.  Any tained food makes my diaphrapham ache like hell, worst kind of indegestion and if it take phenergan or polarmine it now tends to make it worse.  I also keep bees and have noticed that if a bee gets me good I am far more allergic than I use to be.  Copped a few last November on my hands and they swelled up so big I could not make a fist for two days, kids at school got a laugh out of it ;D

I have been thinking it is about time I went and got a specialist to have a look before I get to an acute stage if it is getting worse, your story has made me think a little more seriously about it - thanks. 
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Offline Patr80l

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Re: EpiPen - Not so expensive...
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2011, 09:04:45 PM »
It was touched on lightly early in the post, but when using an EpiPen you must use it with a closed fist. Meaning that all your fingers and your thumb wrap around the tube. Lots of people have tried to fire the EpiPen with their thumb on the end. If you have it like that and have the pen back to front the pressure from your thumb as you "punch" the patent with trigger the pen and stab you, very funny until you realise the only pen has just gone in the the person and the patent dies. If you carry one, please ensure everybody know show to use it, even the person with the allergy as they may need to do it themselves.
In other words, there's more to using an Epipen than just buying one and putting it in your kit.   Before you worry about carrying the tools, learn how to use them; do a first aid course.
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