MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: molongmick on June 03, 2012, 12:00:19 PM
-
Okay, I've been looking at a few duel cab utes over the past few weeks and I am having some difficulty in deciding which ute to buy.
Originally the BT-50 was at the top of the list, but I took the Navara ST for a drive yesterday and was very surprised with the vehicle.
The Triton is out as the back seat is no good, Have a bad atste with the Isuszu/Holden D-Max/Rodeo, Ford Ranger is $5k more than the BT-50, Amorak is nice, but limited wth 2.8 towing capacity.
So the two cars I'm down to
Navara ST:
$43 000 drive away
140kw 450nm
3t towing 300kg down ball
BT-50: XTR (lots of little nicities, not necessities)
Bigger car, but $50 000 price tag
147kw 470nm
3.3t towing 330kg down ball
Both cars will be kitted out with identical gear for most part, so that cost will not change dramaticially, apart from the delay in getting a canopy for the BT-50, as they don't have them in stock.
Extras will include:
Redarc brake controller
Tub Liner
Canopy, high line with roof racks (150kg limit), three lift up windows
T13, TJM bar with 9000lb synthetic tjm winch
towbar and wiring
lightforce driving lights
snorkle
battery isolator
battery outlet/connection in tub
transplanted icom 440 uhf radio
Will be towing a 2.5t van
My question is,
If you had a choice, and yes money will be an issue and probably deciding factor, which of these two would you buy?
Please tell me of any experience with either.
I would like to know of fuel consuption, real life, not quotes figures from books. This will also play an important roll in the decision.
-
My two bobs worth.
A mate at work has just bought a BT-50 TD and I have had the opportunity to take it for a drive. It is an impressive vehicle rides nice and would be a comfortable place to spend many hours. It has heaps of power and is bloody big when you get up close to it.
Another mate has a Navara STR (I think?) which is about 2 years old (so I am not sure if its changed body/power etc in that time and is different to the one you are looking at). He has had a few niggling issues with it, but largley it has been a good vehicle and he is happy with it.
To me thay are chalk and cheese. The Navara is a duel cab ute and feels like a duel cab ute to drive. Its also much small than the BT. The BT on the other hand is much more comfortable and would double as a comfy family car, not to mention it is much bigger and would suit my family better.
Both vehicles will do the job you want them to, it is probably a bit early in the BT50's life to see what retained values will be like to make and decisions regarding the extra purchase price.
If it was my money today after spending some time in both of these I would go for the BT50, because I know once the price has been forgotton it would be the vehicle I was most happy with.
Also after having first hand dealing with Nissan (manly with 3.0lt patrols) they are a PITA to deal with and will squirm out any warranty issue that can. (I dont have any first hand dealings with Mazda to campare).
So for me it would be the BT50.
Regards
Jas
-
If you plan to do any sort of off road towing/touring I'd be looking at something other than a dual cab ute. I don't think the rear chassis and tow bar is up to it. Lots of reports of load 'em up and they banana. Sure they can tow 3T but that's on the black top occasionally not 1000 klms of corrugations in a day.
-
Any Mazda dealers in Alice Springs ? Just something to consider.
The Navara's had a tall first gear, not sure if it's been changed.
IMO
Mazda's have always suffered with resale prices as they age.
-
If you plan to do any sort of off road towing/touring I'd be looking at something other than a dual cab ute. I don't think the rear chassis and tow bar is up to it. Lots of reports of load 'em up and they banana. Sure they can tow 3T but that's on the black top occasionally not 1000 klms of corrugations in a day.
Very true and this needs to be considered when purchasing as there are some pretty bad photos out there. However I think Mazda/Ford have increased the chassis size in response to some issues.
Any vehicle you buy will have issues, plenty of D4D motors dropping injectors etc out there now, the new 200's don't tolerate bad fuel with horrendous repair bills being reported, starter motors and alternators being killed in river crossings etc. So even the big $$$ flash rigs that every one seems to aspire to have there issues when pushed out side of their comfort zones.
There are horror stories with any model if you go lookling for them.
I envy your position mate and wish it was me looking for a new rig, there are lots of good ones out there to chose from. At the end of the day go with the one that suits your needs the best.
regards
Jas
-
plenty of D4D motors dropping injectors etc out there now
You're ripping my heart out :)
Actually looks like it is the injector seals.
-
You're ripping my heart out :)
Actually looks like it is the injector seals.
I believe so mate, apparently some service bulitens in NZ are recommending that the seals are replaced during service every 45000km. I don't believe this has been adopted in Aus yet. Still one of the best vehicles out though (120 series)
Regards
Jas
-
Gee Whizz, you guys have given me something to think about.
My current patrol is as thirtsy as and does not have the storage need for my trips, which is why I am migrating from a "Big" 4x4 to a duel cab, plus most of my off road driving is not what you would call EXTREME.
There is not much out there on the WWW regarding the BT50 engine, from what I have worked out the engine originated from Landrover, then migrated to the Ford transit van then into the Ranger/BT50, correct me if I'm wrong.
The D40 Narava engine has been reworked and is not the standard clunker of the older Navara's.
When I tow the van it will be our destination, which will be used as a base, then doing day trips, as I don't even think the Patrol could tow it into some locations.
All I know is that I wont buy another patrol, very disoppointed with it's towing ability and economy while towing.
I have only looked at the figures of the Hilux, but feel that the 2.5 tow limit is too close for comfort for me.
-
Neither.
I know they are rated to 3 tonne plus, but I agree with D4D.
Ive said it before, so, for the sake of consistency on my behalf, and Ill say it again.
IMO if your towing 2500kg, get a Landcruiser.
Ill shut up now.! ;D
:cheers:
-
Just curious...why did you say the tritons back seat is no good??
The extra leg room, and comfort was a big seller for me. Is it the curved arches that puts you off??
-
With three kids sitting in the back, the centre seat position really pushes you forward. I only really noticed this when I sat in there myself and thought it rather uncomfortable.
Don't worry, originally it was near the top of my list, I was very close to buying the triton.
-
With regards to the towing ability.
I agree with D4D and Mace. I work for the Government and we need to tow boats and use our vehicles in off road conditions. We also use them at their upper load carrying ability all of the time. Our fleet has slowly changed from Patrols and Landcruisers to, Hiluxes, tritons, Dmaxs etc. However cracks are now starting to appear in this cost saving approach.
After weighing a number of these vehicles as used they don't comply with front or read axle weights (some GVM). Also we have been doing diffs, clutches and gear boxes in the 3 years that we keep them (60-80k km). I noticed that the last vehicle we had replaced (a hilux) which frequently tows a 3t boat was replaced with a TDV8 cruiser.
With regard to warranty, essentially we have none. The manufacturers basically claim we are using them beyond there design limits. Essentially yes they can tow 3T but are not designed to do it daily, and especially off road in demanding conditions. This is very similar use to using one for touring when you think about it.
There are currently a lot of negotiations going on to try and sort out warranty, and axle load issues with manufacturers.
Without doubt the first thing I would look at when buying a new vehicle would be, can the GVM be upgraded?? Most of the time this needs to be done prior to it being first registered. But if you are serious about touring and when it all turns to sh!t, to me the piece of mind of knowing that I was legal and covered by insurance is worth far more than the 3k for a GVM upgrade.
In my opinion the new 200 series isn't worth a look with its factory load carrying capacity. Unless the GVM had been upgraded their wouldn't be one loaded up with a family, roof rack, winch, bar, draws, spare wheel carrier, water tank, long range tank etc that would be legal. Most will get a way with it. But if it did turn to sh!t and someone was seriously injured (your fault or not) or killed you will be on your own.
Speaking the the RTA inspectors recently when I got our workmate V8TD weighed confirmed this. They indicated basically that they were not interested in vehicles under 4t (4.5 maybe) HOWEVER if there was a fatal or serious accident and the police asked for an expert witness, then they do investigate and you would be screwed once the issues were identified.
They concede that 99% of the passenger vehicles towing caravans around the country at the moment would be overloaded and illegal, either GVM or axle loads, trailer weights, overall weights etc. They just don't want to know about it...............................................................................................YET.
Regards
Jas
-
They concede that 99% of the passenger vehicles towing caravans around the country at the moment would be overloaded and illegal, either GVM or axle loads, trailer weights, overall weights etc.
As much as the Bushtracker caravan guy is a tosser he is right in saying to pull the weight of gear people now want in their vans you need an F250 or similar...
-
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/53674/2013-toyota-landcruiser-70-series-dual-cab (http://www.themotorreport.com.au/53674/2013-toyota-landcruiser-70-series-dual-cab)
8)
-
110 dual cab Defender?
-
i LUV my 2010 Navara D40..... but i will admit although I have pulled a caravan with it I have not done any extreme or near extreme offroad.
The only gripe i have is the cost of Nissan services. but i guess all dealers charge similar prices.
After some pretty bad experiences with my previous XTrail (serviced by independent mechanics) I decided to stay with nissan & cop the high prices in favour of warranty......which IF necessary I will fight for tooth & nail...
I looked at Maxda, Holden & Toyota & happily settled for the Navara
-
Any reason you have ruled the Hilux out?
http://www.discountnewcars.com.au/toyota/toyota-hilux-kun26r-workmate-utility-double-cab-4dr-4x4-3-0dt-toyo12dw.aspx (http://www.discountnewcars.com.au/toyota/toyota-hilux-kun26r-workmate-utility-double-cab-4dr-4x4-3-0dt-toyo12dw.aspx)
-
navara has much lower clearance than the BT-50...if going off road, please take into consideration
Also, BT50 has 5 yr warranty vs 3.......
-
My main issue is the D40 is 500kg (unladen) lighter than the Caravan.
A patrol or Cruiser are at least as heavy as the Van (2500/2650 kg) in their bare form.
Basic laws of physics and pendulum forces if things go wrong are my concern.
I cringe every time I pass a D40 on the highway going the other way with a large dual axle van on the back, and sigh when its safely passed. They have become the vehicle of choice for many towing this type of van because of their lower cost. Im sure theyre a great vehicle, but IMO not suitable for this type of towing.
:cheers:
-
I cringe every time I pass a D40 on the highway going the other way with a large dual axle van on the back
Same here and they're the rigs with weight distribution hitches which put even more stress on the chassis/towbar.
-
Any reason you have ruled the Hilux out?
http://www.discountnewcars.com.au/toyota/toyota-hilux-kun26r-workmate-utility-double-cab-4dr-4x4-3-0dt-toyo12dw.aspx (http://www.discountnewcars.com.au/toyota/toyota-hilux-kun26r-workmate-utility-double-cab-4dr-4x4-3-0dt-toyo12dw.aspx)
Cost?, old engine design, and Cost I reckon. The others have not only caught up with but are currently eclipsing the Hilux I think. Toyota will strike back, eventually.
-
I DID say i haven't done extreme off road........ am waiting for a 2012 Dove Outback to be delivered & doubt even then i will do EXTREME....
As far as the towbar is concerned I was advised at time of purchase (by the dealer) that i should avoid the Nissan towbar because of the chassis fracture issue. I went with the Hayman Reese
-
Neither.
I know they are rated to 3 tonne plus, but I agree with D4D.
Ive said it before, so, for the sake of consistency on my behalf, and Ill say it again.
IMO if your towing 2500kg, get a Landcruiser.
Ill shut up now.! ;D
:cheers:
Thats why I bought a Landcruiser Workmate. I really liked the BT-50 when I bought my Mazda 3. Nearly bought one. :angel:
-
having owned a D40, I honestly believe that it would die trying to tow my Complete Campsite at 1.8T let alone your van at 2.5T.
i personally wouldn't buy a ute again. I went into the Prado and haven't really looked back. the wagons are HEAPS more comfortable to tour in over the utes. i can drive for 12 hours towing, and get out of the prado and keep doing stuff. When i was doing the same thing in the D40 - i was a write off after a long drive.
i can fit everything in from the utw to the wagon, and i dare say if you can't, that you are carrying too much. Just my opinions.
between the two, i would choose the BT50.
Dan
-
am waiting for a 2012 Dove Outback to be delivered & doubt even then i will do EXTREME....
I think a D40 is a perfect vehicle for you.
:cheers:
-
that's what i figger
-
As far as the towbar is concerned I was advised at time of purchase (by the dealer) that i should avoid the Nissan towbar because of the chassis fracture issue. I went with the Hayman Reese
Agreed if you ever plan to run a WDH then HR is the only way to go. I'm replacing the Prado OE towbar with a HR towbar when mine gets repaired.
-
Thanks evereyone, you certainly given me alot to think about.
I do need extra storage, moreso for when I'm not towing, doing weekend camping trips, but when towing, there will not be much in th back except for fridge and some smaller items.
Might need to wait and see what the New Colorado is like.
Money is a deciding factor, but so is safety.
If I do go the BT50/ranger I can't do as many mods staright away.
I have read up on the front end of the Navara having some issues when a bull bar and winch is added, needing new suspension and a positive latch for the bonnet, Not sure why this needs to be done on a new vehicle though.
Might sit back and think some more.
-
Thinking is good Mick especially when you're towing close to the limit of the vehicle. You really need to sit down and do the maths on the GVM and GCM. There was a thread a while ago about a Tvan owner who had to sell it and the tow vehicle to stay legal...
-
Mick
I am another one who says neither of those cars are suitable. Yes they will tow their advertised weights but not necessarily anything of any shape and size that happens to weigh that much and certainly not on all road surfaces. If you contact the manufacturer they will most likely tell you their advertised towing capacities are the maximum possible in highway conditions only and should be reduced on off road surfaces. The same applies to carrying capacity.
Have a look at these two articles. They explain everything in much more detail than I ever could. I read something recently, it may even have been in these articles, that dual cabs have a poor record of jack- knifing when towing large vans.
http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/pdf/vehicle_dynamics_complete.pdf (http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/pdf/vehicle_dynamics_complete.pdf)
http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/caravan_dynamics_cw.pdf (http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/caravan_dynamics_cw.pdf)
-
I am in the same boat, Nissan is out, my swimming pool man brought one six months ago and said he is taking it back.
I drove the new Colorado last Friday and it is now no 1 above the BT 50, but still to drive the new D.Max and the new auto Amarok, think it will be to pricy for us though. The Colorado felt better to drive, we are only driving autos, not as much turbo lag and in 6th gear doing 100 Ks at 1600 rpm with enough grunt to power away at that. It also felt nicer, better built there was something there anyway. Also the leg room in the back was brilliant to.