MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Beachman on October 10, 2011, 04:38:36 PM
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Howdee
We recently took the kids on a driving holiday to North QLD and it surprised me the number of 4 cylinder CARS/4WD/AWD towing large tandem caravans or boats.
For example I think the 4 cylinder Turbo Diesel Prado/Pajero/Navara are all fantastic cars, but some of these guys are towing a 2 or 3 ton trailers around Australia. Then we have the RAV4/CRV/Forresters towing trailers so heavy I’m surprised there steering actually worked as the front of the cars were nearly off the ground.
I am the first to admit my 1HZ cruiser isn’t the fastest car around especially towing a camper trailer, so if I can easily overtake some of these cars then that confirms there engines must be struggling.
I understand people are concerned about rising fuel prices, but is downing sizing to a smaller motor really the answer??
Some of the cars in question had WA/Vic number plates which to me says the owners are on long road trips, so wouldn’t they be actually using more fuel then a bigger motor of say TD Cruiser or 4.2 Patrol?? Also long term it has to rip the guts out of these motors leading to expensive repairs??
Thanks
PS: I’ve just used the above cars as an example and not trying to turn this tread into a badge war.
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You can buy all the gear you can afford but you can't buy common sense...
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My Mates grand parents used to live in Blanchtown SA and would tow their Caravan to Queensland every year at 60km/h with their 2.6 Sigma.
The truckies would have loved em soo much!!!!
:cheers:
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We towed a jayco swan for four months around east oz with a current model rav4 4cyl auto.
Fuel consumption was around the 16lphk's sometimes higher.
It was within its factory tow specs, had a hayman reece towhitch with weight distribution bars and was covered by new car warranty.
Seriously, why would I have needed anything bigger. It took us where we wanted and we towed at 90 to 100k's. We actually downsized from a 100series petrol a year earlier as we just didnt need the low range and big size (do now though :D )
Later on we sold the Jayco and built a lighter weight CT. We could sit on 120 - 130 and overtake at will. Far faster than our new Prado TD. We did 105000ks and the only issue we had was a knock in the steering column replaced under warranty.
I wouldnt confuse them going slow with the capabilities of the cars. If they were grey nomads some (thats SOME) seem to take some sort of delight in maintaining an average speed a model T Ford would be proud of 8)
For an urban family, where low range is not a requirement, a V6 Rav4 with 200kw would be a great tug for an average CT plus they are a great town car.
cheers
daz
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My 3.0L TDI Patrol was a straight four (manual) with 114kW. Pulled the Jayco Hawk without too much effort (except for hills) and was a steady tug. (Big truck with firm suspension and a full chassis sitting on live axles).
My 3.0L TDI Touareg is a V6 (auto) with 165kW. Pulls well but not as steady a tug as the Nissan (a little bit of the tail wagging the dog) . You notice the movement of the van. (Is that due to the independent rear suspension?) Mind you, the only trip I've done with the VW was around the block to see if I had wired the Prodigy in correctly.
Interestingly, the rated towing capacity of the VW is 3500kg, which I think is quite a bit more than the Nissan.
Best of all was my 4.5L Petrol 80 Series; the grunt of the VW with the mass of the Nissan. It was very easy to forget you were towing something, even up hills.
Size matters. 8)
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My previous vehicle, a 3 litre manual GU IV Patrol was used to tow a Platinum Kimberley Kamper, which i'd estimate weighed in the region of 1.5 tonne. Fuel average was about 17l/100 km towing.
My current Cruiser tows a 2.2 tonne AORC Quantum, using about the same average fuel of 17 l/100 km, yet the Cruiser's heavier as is the camper, AND, it's got 8 cylinders and 650 nm of torque! ;D
ps, saw a Touareg in Karumba last year, hooked up to a Kedron or perhaps Bushtrakker ~ 3+ tonne.
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Its not the size of the dog in the fight , its the size of the fight in the dog . Dont you know :cheers:
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2km drive around the block is not what I'd call a long term test of the Touareg! I'll have to see how it goes on a longer trip.
By the way, The Touareg's TDI is an Audi motor and puts out 500Nm of torque. That should be good for towing.
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When we use to tug big horse floats around we use a GQ II, but once that finished, we downsized to a courier TD Dual Cab 2cyl 2.5L 4WD It tows the camper, the boats and anything else we have now (all sub one tonne) and does it easily. I do miss the grunt of the troll (worked petrol motor on gas), but the courier is much more flexible.
Steve
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Hi,
Land Rovers have managed pretty well for a long time.
cheers
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Isuzu use a 4cyl in their D-Max...which is the same engine they use in their 4.5 tonne trucks. I don't hear too many complaints of those engines...
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Going completely Off Topic ... I don't think it matters what you tow it with ... but can you try to level the bloody thing?
What's with having the hitch scraping along the ground? Surely they wouldn't be able to handle the vehicle within the guidelines of driving, braking, turning, engine dying and umm towing? Just an accident waiting to happen ...
Kit_e
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Hi,
specs for the LR Defender 130 Cab Chassis is 3.5t braked, 750kg unbraked, recommended tow-ball weight of 150kg.
The weights for the trailer seem to be the same as the V8 Toyota specs. (http://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70-series/specifications/cab-chassis-workmate?WT.ac=VHLC70RangeSpecsCCWorkMateSpecs)
cheers
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Its not the size of the dog in the fight , its the size of the fight in the dog . Dont you know :cheers:
Depends on whether you have a Long Nosed, short Eared, long Bodied, short Legged, long Tailed water spaniel or
it's a Crocodile
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Give it 3-5yrs, and you wont be able to get anything but a piss ant over stressed 4cylinder.
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Hairs , Really the equiliser would have to be a 308. at the least :-*
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Yeah it's a very valid point. I have a GQ troll but the missus has a 2010 Forester on salary sacrifice with fuel included in the package. This is tempting to use as the tug but still I use the troll. I am still not convinced that I should hook the Trackabout up to the Forester as I'm sure over time it would pull the arse out of it. Don't get me wrong as I love Subies, had a 86 DL wagon for 20 yrs till I traded it in on the GQ which was 3rd hand at 85000K but in this case size does matter. We are intending to keep the forrie after the lease ends so are looking after it.
My mate towed his Trackie behind his Rav4 (4 cyl) around NSW, Vic & SA and when he got back to Brisvegas had a $900 bill to replace seals in the back of the gearbox which Toyota attributed to towing heavy loads. Sounded like a warranty copout to me though as it was still below the weight limit for the Rav though which makes you wonder whether the towing capacity of some of these cars is a little exaggerated.
Also begs the question of overloading trailers as I have a tendency to bend axles in my garden trailers hauling gravel, rocks & the occasional small mountain).
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Its an interesting topic. I have recently looked at the figures and it shows my 2.5TD Pathy has more HP and torque thas the 70 series cruiser. and they are a 4.5lt turbo v8....
I know what i would like to have towing my ct but :)
Cheers
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Its an interesting topic. I have recently looked at the figures and it shows my 2.5TD Pathy has more HP and torque thas the 70 series cruiser. and they are a 4.5lt turbo v8....
I know what i would like to have towing my ct but :)
Cheers
Are we talking 70 series Turbo V8 or Turbo 4.2, because they are both around 150Kw with around 440 to 500Nm, as far as I'm aware the Pathy has only 127Kw ???
Baz.
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Apology, its only torque, My pathy is rated at 450Nm and both the TDV870CC has 430 as does the 70 series wagon also TDV8.
And my Nissan only has 11HP less. go figure....
Cheers!
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My mate towed his Trackie behind his Rav4 (4 cyl) around NSW, Vic & SA and when he got back to Brisvegas had a $900 bill to replace seals in the back of the gearbox which Toyota attributed to towing heavy loads. Sounded like a warranty copout to me though as it was still below the weight limit for the Rav though which makes you wonder whether the towing capacity of some of these cars is a little exaggerated.
Also begs the question of overloading trailers as I have a tendency to bend axles in my garden trailers hauling gravel, rocks & the occasional small mountain).
A transmission cooler would've probably mitigated this risk. If towing it's a smart idea to install one if it's an auto regardless of the engine size.
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Give it 3-5yrs, and you wont be able to get anything but a piss ant over stressed 4cylinder.
Tell that to Isuzu. They're certainly not having problems with their piss ant over stressed 4 cyl engines in their trucks.
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Give it 3-5yrs, and you wont be able to get anything but a piss ant over stressed 4cylinder.
Probably because the new technology 4 cylinder diesels are extremely capable engines, I know my turbo diesel Ssanyong has a 3 year or 1OO,OOO Km warranty, which is the same as new Nissan or Toyota engines and is considered realistic.
It's a high risk to tow a van or boat that weighs more than the towing vehicle anyway.
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makes you wonder whether the towing capacity of some of these cars is a little exaggerated.
I agree with this comment as I believe car manufactures have a lot to answer for when it comes to determining the maximum towing capacity. (Same thing as car ads showing people driving through the water at the beach)
Sure these cars might be able to tow the weight on a flat test track with a perfect road surface in the middle of a Japanese winter, but towing at the maximum limit for weeks at a time on Qld’s crappy hilly and pot hole ridden roads in the middle of summer is a different kettle of fish.
I know my wife’s AWD is rated to tow 2T which is a bit of a joke considering the thing hates 5 adults and a boot full of gear.
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You can't trust the manufacturers towing spec's. My LR Discovery has 3500kg tow rating but just towing a 900kg trailer caused an expensive early demise of the transmission due to insufficient cooling.
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Interesting topic, I'll continue to follow it.
Just returned from a 4000k trip towing a 800-900kg camper trailer behind a 2010 D22 navara dualcab with CRTD2.5 ( with dobinsons suspension upgrade)
I noticed that power was fine for cruising at 100-110km, average 13-14 l per 100k.
The only issue was getting from 100-120 to overtake, and through some steep grades, I was really changing down. From time to time I did feel a bit of 'bounce feedback' from the trailer.
If I was sticking with the car, I'd go chip and zorst for sure. I would be very reluctant to tow anything significantly heavier with it.
Not sure, maybe my expectations are too high.
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I think we're missing the point? Power and torque from a 4 or 8 are the same. This notion of nothing beats cubic inches is a thing of the past. A great motor is nothing if the rest is of the stuff around it is crap.
Yep my Patrol is a four pot but it does the job. My old Disco was a four and it did the job. Yeah a v8 would be nice but for the money, I'm a happy traveller.
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I think we're missing the point? Power and torque from a 4 or 8 are the same. This notion of nothing beats cubic inches is a thing of the past.
Depends how you look at it. Yes the figures are the same, but a larger lazy engine that will do 1,000,000klms standing on its head, or a highly strung donk that stands no chance of 500,000klms or very rarely.. thats what I'm talking bout.
But as I said, dont suppose it matters most people only keep cars for 3-4yrs now, so if its ready to blow up, its someone elses problem... but they are richer than I..
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Depends how you look at it. Yes the figures are the same, but a larger lazy engine that will do 1,000,000klms standing on its head, or a highly strung donk that stands no chance of 500,000klms or very rarely.. thats what I'm talking bout.
How do you differentiate the "highly strung" diesel engine from the "lazy" diesel engine ??
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a 4 cyl td that makes 114kw and 430nm compared to a 6 cyl td with the same output figures the 6 does it with less strain on the moving parts as its spread over 6 pots compared to the 4 thats why they wear out quicker as they are more stressed and carry more load over less parts
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Having recently swapped from the 4.0 straight-6 Petrol Jeep to the 3.2 Di-D (4cyl) Pajero a few observations while towing ....
The Pajero absolutely flogs the Jeep as a tow vehicle in every single respect. Better fuel economy, better acceleration, better overtaking ability.
My favourite test is the on-ramp from Gaza Rd onto the SE Freeway, southbound. Its uphill and you can do a run from 0-100 km/h up it with 1400kg camper in tow.
Streetview: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=gaza+rd,+holland+park&hl=en&ll=-27.535693,153.061352&spn=0.011778,0.024784&hnear=Gaza+Rd,+Brisbane+Queensland+4121&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=-27.534604,153.059201&panoid=3uZuXqslf6StMQ6KoQhcNQ&cbp=12,192.54,,0,0
In the Jeep, I could nail it and it would be a noisy, harsh ride up to 100km/h by the top of the ramp.
In the Pajero ... I nailed it and had to back off at around 120 and still had plenty of road.
It's like chalk and cheese.
Overtaking while towing with the Jeep required a fair bit of forethought as the pickup from around 80-90 km/h was not inspiring. With the Pajero I don't even need to do anything special, just pull out and pass. The Jeep is also about 700kgs lighter than the Pajero, so the Pajero is fighting extra weight as well.
Modern TDs have come a long way.
Don't confuse the issue of too small a tow vehicle with the engine choice. I wouldn't tow a 1400kg camper behind some of the smaller 4WDs, they get bullied around. The Jeep was pretty light and it would occasionally get pushed around by the camper. The Pajero is big enough and heavy enough to not be bothered by it.
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a 4 cyl td that makes 114kw and 430nm compared to a 6 cyl td with the same output figures the 6 does it with less strain on the moving parts as its spread over 6 pots compared to the 4 thats why they wear out quicker as they are more stressed and carry more load over less parts
using that same analogy, how would a V8 with 114kw and 430nm compare to a 4 cylinder of same 114kw and 430nm ???
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On the basis of an engine being highly strung, Take the number of cylinders out of the equation as to a degree it is irrelevant. What is relevent is the Kilowatt/litre of engine capacity. It is only 20 years ago that a 5l holden V8 was considered powerful with 134kw, now a 200 series landcruiser 4.5 diesel has 200kw. That is how far technology has come. If someone tried to sell you a new holden v8 with 134kw today most would walk straight to ford and buy a turbo 6 with more power and better fuel economy. I've often read of the 3lt patrol (I own one) being too highly strung to be tow, here is the fact.
Gu patrol 3lt 38kw/l
100 series turbo 36kw/l
200series 44kw/l
Which engine is more highly strung on paper.
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Gu patrol 3lt 38kw/l
100 series turbo 36kw/l
200series 44kw/l
Which engine is more highly strung on paper.
Add to that list the Ssangyong turbo diesel 52kw/l ;D
Bore & stroke: 86.2 x 85.6
Compression ratio: 17.5:1
Kerb weight: 1,873 kg
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I was surprised when I saw the following figures.
Navara/Pathfinder: 3.0ltr V6 diesel 173 Kw and 550 Nm
70 Series wagon : 4.5ltr V8 diesel 151 Kw and 430 Nm
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Having recently swapped from the 4.0 straight-6 Petrol Jeep to the 3.2 Di-D (4cyl) Pajero a few observations while towing ....
The Pajero absolutely flogs the Jeep as a tow vehicle in every single respect. Better fuel economy, better acceleration, better overtaking ability.
My favourite test is the on-ramp from Gaza Rd onto the SE Freeway, southbound. Its uphill and you can do a run from 0-100 km/h up it with 1400kg camper in tow.
Streetview: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=gaza+rd,+holland+park&hl=en&ll=-27.535693,153.061352&spn=0.011778,0.024784&hnear=Gaza+Rd,+Brisbane+Queensland+4121&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=-27.534604,153.059201&panoid=3uZuXqslf6StMQ6KoQhcNQ&cbp=12,192.54,,0,0
In the Jeep, I could nail it and it would be a noisy, harsh ride up to 100km/h by the top of the ramp.
In the Pajero ... I nailed it and had to back off at around 120 and still had plenty of road.
It's like chalk and cheese.
Overtaking while towing with the Jeep required a fair bit of forethought as the pickup from around 80-90 km/h was not inspiring. With the Pajero I don't even need to do anything special, just pull out and pass. The Jeep is also about 700kgs lighter than the Pajero, so the Pajero is fighting extra weight as well.
Modern TDs have come a long way.
Don't confuse the issue of too small a tow vehicle with the engine choice. I wouldn't tow a 1400kg camper behind some of the smaller 4WDs, they get bullied around. The Jeep was pretty light and it would occasionally get pushed around by the camper. The Pajero is big enough and heavy enough to not be bothered by it.
Comparing petrol to diesel is like comparing apples to oranges. Plus it's off topic.
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using that same analogy, how would a V8 with 114kw and 430nm compare to a 4 cylinder of same 114kw and 430nm
There is a difference between these power and torque figures. When people quote figures what you are comparing is the peak figures only which doesn't reflect the true characteristics of the engine. Put both of the above vehicles on the same dyno and compare the resulting graphs. What you actually need to compare is the area beneath the graphs, which is effectively the available power and torque from zero rpms to redline. What you will find is that the smaller 4cyl diesel engines torque will be very "peaky", and will need to be revved out to reach it's maximum torque.
In comparison the bigger engine will likley be making 80% of it's available torque just off idle and maximum torque between 1800-2000rpm. Big flat torque curves. Hence why people refer to them "lazy" diesel engines.
For interests sake Mainey, on your vehicle, what does the manufacturer specify the RPM at peak power and torque?
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I was surprised when I saw the following figures.
Navara/Pathfinder: 3.0ltr V6 diesel 173 Kw and 550 Nm
70 Series wagon : 4.5ltr V8 diesel 151 Kw and 430 Nm
and which one would you expect to get to 1,000,000klms with the least issues... and door handle replacements (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/keithssheila/emoticons.gif)
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For interests sake Mainey, on your vehicle, what does the manufacturer specify the RPM at peak power and torque?
Maximum power (kW/rpm) 104 @ 4,000
Maximum torque (Nm/rpm) 310 @1,800
from my observation @ 110 kph is ~2,250 rpm
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In comparison the bigger engine will likley be making 80% of it's available torque just off idle and maximum torque between 1800-2000rpm. Big flat torque curves. Hence why people refer to them "lazy" diesel engines.
That’s a good example as while in my opinion it looked like these 4 cylinder TD were struggling on hills or with strong headwinds. I also noticed the factory TD & V8 Cruiser, 4.2 Patrol and the F250/350 tow these big trailers effortlessly.
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The truckies would have loved em soo much!!!!
:cheers:
If they would just learn to BACK OFF when being overtaken >:D
and not do 365kmph in overtaking lanes >:D
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Comparing petrol to diesel is like comparing apples to oranges. Plus it's off topic.
No different to comparing an old tech N/A diesel with modern TDs.
The question was posed about how "hard" 4cyl TDs are working while towing. My view is it is working less hard than the petrol in my old Jeep did, and yet no-one bats an eyelid when recommending 4L 6cyl petrol engines for towing (if you can afford the fuel bill) e.g. Falcon/Commodore/80 series/100 series (excl V8)/Pajero V6/Patrol etc all use six cylinder engines around that capacity.
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and which one would you expect to get to 1,000,000klms with the least issues... and door handle replacements
You got me. Which one has the door handle problem?
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My current kenworth ie:RAV 4 tugging a full load 65 tonne all up from brisbane to melbourne at a total of 1668km
burns 1250ltrs of fuel at 550hp every trip and up to 400ltrs more in strong head winds
sitting around 102kmph 90% of the run
My previous Kenworth ie:V8 Landcruiser tugging the same weight and travelling the same kms
burnt 800ltrs with 620hp and an extra 100ltrs in strong head winds
sitting around 104kmph 90% of the trip
If i sat a 60-80 kmph like the grey slowmads
i would burn half that fuel but take up to 9 hours longer to to the trip
I don't pay for fuel so bugger it hold the girl flat tac
result is more HP = less wear and tear
and less HP will cost you a bloody fortune ;D
torque is nothing without horse power to boot
big torgue is great for fuel consumption of flat ground
its horse power that gets you up the hill
small cars = small torgue and horse power = driving slower to get good fuel consumption
flogging a small car while towing would not give it a good long life
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Interesting topic - actually discussed it around the camfire two weekends ago (@ Rawnsley Park).
To me its not all about the power/torque of the engine, its also about the gross mass of the vehicle, the weight of the caravan/camper, and the ability of the vehicle to use its reserve power to control any momentum issues with the towed item - ie, at times, reserve power may be needed to pull the caravan out of any centripetal motion at speed, instead of putting on the brakes.
We were discussing the prevalence of D40 Twin Cab Nissans pulling large dual axle caravans. Many of these vans must weigh 2500 kg, perhaps more. My view was that I thought that there were more suitable vehicles to pull these vans, such as a Landcruiser. Now, i have no gripe with the Nissan as a vehicle as such, but lets have a look at the specs:
Vehicle Tare weight kg Braked Towing Capacity kw/torque
D40 1922 (auto) 3000 kg 126/403
L/Cruiser 200 2630 3500 kg 195/650
Yes, towing a large dual axle van is within the D40's stated capacity, They seem to have become a vehicle of choice for towing (perhaps because of cheaper cost). IMHO tho, id rather be towing such a van with a L/Cruiser (or Troll) as the vehicle has more power in reserve for vehicle control and overtaking, and is less likely to become a pedulum at the end of a van that is heavier than it in emergency situations.
My opinion only, others welcome.
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To continue this:
D40: 1922/126 = 15.25 kg/kW
L200: 2630 / 195 = 13.49 kg/kW
So this would mean that the L200 has to move less weight for each kW, should be better for the engine.
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Interesting topic - actually discussed it around the camfire two weekends ago (@ Rawnsley Park).
To me its not all about the power/torque of the engine, its also about the gross mass of the vehicle, the weight of the caravan/camper, and the ability of the vehicle to use its reserve power to control any momentum issues with the towed item - ie, at times, reserve power may be needed to pull the caravan out of any centripetal motion at speed, instead of putting on the brakes.
We were discussing the prevalence of D40 Twin Cab Nissans pulling large dual axle caravans. Many of these vans must weigh 2500 kg, perhaps more. My view was that I thought that there were more suitable vehicles to pull these vans, such as a Landcruiser. Now, i have no gripe with the Nissan as a vehicle as such, but lets have a look at the specs:
Vehicle Tare weight kg Braked Towing Capacity kw/torque
D40 1922 (auto) 3000 kg 126/403
L/Cruiser 200 2630 3500 kg 195/650
Yes, towing a large dual axle van is within the D40's stated capacity, They seem to have become a vehicle of choice for towing (perhaps because of cheaper cost). IMHO tho, id rather be towing such a van with a L/Cruiser (or Troll) as the vehicle has more power in reserve for vehicle control and overtaking, and is less likely to become a pedulum at the end of a van that is heavier than it in emergency situations.
My opinion only, others welcome.
It's not only your opinion. My father is starting his grey nomad life with a 23 foot van. he has mentioned a lot of people are not happy with towing the larger vans with utes and Prado size 4wd's, despite the vans being within the towing capacity of the vehicles.
To me its not all about the power/torque of the engine, its also about the gross mass of the vehicle, the weight of the caravan/camper, and the ability of the vehicle to use its reserve power to control any momentum issues with the towed item - ie, at times, reserve power may be needed to pull the caravan out of any centripetal motion at speed, instead of putting on the brakes.
My old jayco is not nealy as nice to tow behind my wife's 95 series Prado as behind a patrol or landcruiser. there are times you can feel the jayco pushing you.
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(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn113/CSC10000/i-like-where-this-thread-is-going-8.jpg)
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Thanx Lost - thought that might stirr things up a bit!! :cheers:
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Tail wagging the dog is not something that is enjoyable
Remember this? Legal yes, common sense no
(http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/gallery/remote/2011/01/07/858971.jpg)
(http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/gallery/remote/2011/01/07/858891.jpg)
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Tail wagging the dog is not something that is enjoyable
Remember this? Legal yes, common sense no
(http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/gallery/remote/2011/01/07/858971.jpg)
(http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/gallery/remote/2011/01/07/858891.jpg)
best 30mins of their camping life.
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Tail wagging the dog is not something that is enjoyable
Remember this? Legal yes, common sense no
that would be a perfect example as to why the 60/40 method also should be applied at all times
what a shame that is a brand new van they just picked up 30 minutes earlier
the worse one i saw was one that killed the whole family and it turned out to be manufactures fault
the van was rear end heavy from scratch before they even loaded it up
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My opinion is really a common sense thing, towing anything at the max capacity of the tow vehicle regardless of the vehicle is asking for trouble, in one off siTuations it is probably, but all the time, it's gotta be bad for any 4WD.
This setup is 2900kg towed by a 3.0 Isuzu, with a max tow capacity of 3000kg, you make up your own mind whether this is OK for the long term of the engine or not.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/bazzar/DSCF0089.jpg)
Baz.
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Nothing to do with the engine, more to do with handling in that example. The yanks use F350s on their fifth wheelers for a reason...
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This setup is 2900kg towed by a 3.0 Isuzu, with a max tow capacity of 3000kg, you make up your own mind whether this is OK for the long term of the engine or not.
Baz.
That is way crazy, that is in the realms of an F250 at least. It's not only the safety of the car in question, its the safety of other road users as well. That is why I will not tow my Trackie Safari with my Forester as I think it is too heavy for it even though it would be legal. It only goes behind the trol. Horses for coarses.
There has to be some sense in this even if the manufacturers think it is OK.
Let sanity prevail or else let natural selection take its role.
:o
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My opinion is really a common sense thing, towing anything at the max capacity of the tow vehicle regardless of the vehicle is asking for trouble, in one off siTuations it is probably, but all the time, it's gotta be bad for any 4WD.
This setup is 2900kg towed by a 3.0 Isuzu, with a max tow capacity of 3000kg, you make up your own mind whether this is OK for the long term of the engine or not.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/bazzar/DSCF0089.jpg)
Baz.
Whilst I think that van is a little on the heavy side for the D-max, with weight being equal I'd rather the 5th wheel option as opposed to the standard tow ball in regards to towing stability
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he has mentioned a lot of people are not happy with towing the larger vans with utes and Prado size 4wd's, despite the vans being within the towing capacity of the vehicles.
I've been thinking about this topic for a while and while parked at the kids soccer match the other day I had my GQ next to a new Prado. The GQ looked small in comparison so I had a look for specs.
Prado (3L Diesel) GQ Patrol (4.2 Diesel specs)
Width 1885mm Width 1930mm
Length 4930mm Length 4810mm
Height 1890 Height 1825mm
Kerb W 2345 Kerb W 2115
Tow 2500Kg Tow 2500Kg
I have always classed the Prado as mid sized and the patrol as large size. Just shows how we (me) can be led astray.
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After all the reading of these pots, I decided to go for 2x4 cylindes = V8. ;D
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This setup is 2900kg towed by a 3.0 Isuzu, with a max tow capacity of 3000kg, you make up your own mind whether this is OK for the long term of the engine or not.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/bazzar/DSCF0089.jpg)
doesnt look like much mother earth under that front right tyre either.
Towball weight is over-rated.
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd234/cremo1/commodore-1.jpg)
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I've been thinking about this topic for a while and while parked at the kids soccer match the other day I had my GQ next to a new Prado. The GQ looked small in comparison so I had a look for specs.
Prado (3L Diesel) GQ Patrol (4.2 Diesel specs)
Width 1885mm Width 1930mm
Length 4930mm Length 4810mm
Height 1890 Height 1825mm
Kerb W 2345 Kerb W 2115
Tow 2500Kg Tow 2500Kg
I have always classed the Prado as mid sized and the patrol as large size. Just shows how we (me) can be led astray.
...and my Touareg, which looks a lot smaller than it really is and has independant rear suspension, can tow 3500kg.
(well there was that Jumbo jet too, but that was with a couple of tonnes of ballast and a V10 TDI)
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There is a difference between these power and torque figures. When people quote figures what you are comparing is the peak figures only which doesn't reflect the true characteristics of the engine. Put both of the above vehicles on the same dyno and compare the resulting graphs. What you actually need to compare is the area beneath the graphs, which is effectively the available power and torque from zero rpms to redline. What you will find is that the smaller 4cyl diesel engines torque will be very "peaky", and will need to be revved out to reach it's maximum torque.
In comparison the bigger engine will likley be making 80% of it's available torque just off idle and maximum torque between 1800-2000rpm. Big flat torque curves. Hence why people refer to them "lazy" diesel engines.
For interests sake Mainey, on your vehicle, what does the manufacturer specify the RPM at peak power and torque?
I agree with this.
Having had, Prado TD's (120's), 80 series 1hdt crusers, 1HZ 80's and 100's, Nissan 3.0TD's and currently a 70 series TD V8 cruiser and a Holden Adventra 5.7lt V8 and Nissan X trail TD (2lt), I can contest that whilst modern diesel's have come along way, displacement still makes a big difference. And big displacement in a modern diesel engine is even better, take the 200 series TD V8 for example.
The specs on the sales sheets are for pub drag racing rights only. The difference between a small displacement engine and a large one needs to be experienced from the drivers seat. It is more relaxed less peaky power.
Regards
Jas