MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: CRW on August 20, 2011, 09:54:32 PM
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Hi all
Another person is killed due to using tow balls as a snatching/towing point.
'http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/10077878/woman-dies-in-geraldton-towing-mishap/
Thoughts go out to her family, but for gods sake, learn which winching/snatching and towing points to use on your vehicles
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:'( terrible news
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Couldn't agree more.
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That's shocking stuff.
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shocking and terrible, how many times do you see this. I always say something (offer advice), often I'm told "she'll be right mate" and I just get everyone the hell out of there.
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I (personally) would have thought that a towball would be a reasonable attachment point, only because of the way they are built as suitable to tow a caravan or camper trailer etc, and handle the breaking and accelerating encountered in touring.
When you watch some of the video's of you guys going up to Cape York, the force on the towball, as you go down into the creeks and back up the other side would have to put excessive force on the towball.
I'm NOT suggesting a towball is suitable for towing, I just watch in bewilderment at the force that must be applied to it when used to transverse some of the gullies and irregular creek and river crossing seen on your video's.
Maybe 'lady luck' has to form some part of the equation ??? ???
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It is a huge' No no' to snatch from a tow ball. Very common for tow ball to snap off and become a lethal weapon. That is why 4x4's have recovery hooks. It is possible to remove tow ball and put a rated D shackkle in place of tow ball or replace hitch with designated recovery hook made for the receiver. never snatch off tow ball and it(tow ball) is not also to be used in attaching a tow rope either. Not much danger of a tow ball becoming a missile when using A frame to tow with as designed. Ball retained in coupling even if it did break, it can't be missile.
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A tow ball is designed to hold a static weight, maybe a tonne or two of drag. When a snatch strap goes off its like a 8 tonne sledge hammer hitting the ball.
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shocking and terrible, how many times do you see this. I always say something (offer advice), often I'm told "she'll be right mate" and I just get everyone the hell out of there.
We had the same thing, people not taking note up the Cape. There was a car trying to winch out of GunShot with a camper. Every one was just standing around in front of the car while he winched out - well not really, he couldn't get out with one winch such was the force. We suggested he moved people out of the way only to be looked at like we were the idiots. In the end Terry and I moved people, kids etc. They ended up bringing another car down to gun shot and attached that winch as well. Two winches puling this lump of steel up the hill with no dampeners or any thought of others. People just don't.
Such a shame this has happened...
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Last time I was down the Pieman heads I got stuck and had to get my mate to snatch me out. The d shackle come of the back of his bus and flew past the side of my bus and smashed the side mirror. Lesson learnt hook everything up yourself double check everything and get everyone out of the way, it could have been much worse.
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Last time I was down the Pieman heads I got stuck and had to get my mate to snatch me out. The d shackle come of the back of his bus and flew past the side of my bus and smashed the side mirror. Lesson learnt hook everything up yourself double check everything and get everyone out of the way, it could have been much worse.
Sh1t :o Bet that woke you up.
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Yep, like I said lesson learnt. If it had of been a foot to the left it would have been a different story.
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I'm NOT suggesting a towball is suitable for towing, I just watch in bewilderment at the force that must be applied to it when used to transverse some of the gullies and irregular creek and river crossing seen on your video's.
Maybe 'lady luck' has to form some part of the equation ??? ???
Lady luck has nothing to do with it, a snatch strap acts just like a big rubber band, and the forces generated by that action can easily exceed the 3.5T rating of a standard towball. You don't get the same forces generated by towing, regardless of what type of terrain you are dragging the camper over.
Really good information about it here - http://www.landroverclub.za.org/snatch_straps.htm
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Some may suggest a maxtrax recovery is safer than a snatch recovery however all recoveries are dangerous and require care and planning. It is unfortunate that these events still happen. It should be a requirement of all snatch strap sellers/manufacturers they have a one page safety sheet included with each strap.
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The shock loadings on a recovery point when snatching can be well over double the weight of the loaded vehicle, NO towball is designed to take those loads.
Its got nothing to do with lady luck and everything to do with lacking knowledge or arrogance and stupidity >:(
Its a tregedy that someone else as been killed by using a towball as a recovery point and my thoughts go out to the family :'(
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Saw something similar at double island point. Guy with a troll snatching a cruiser out backwards. Two big vehicles and one bogged down. Hooked up the snatch on to the tow ball on the cruiser. Saw it from a distance and stayed there as they were about to get into it. Towball let go sending through the back window of the troll and through the front. Must have missed the driver by 20cm - very lucky.
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I got one of these the other day
http://www.raysoutdoors.com.au/online-store/products/XTM-Hitch-Shackle.aspx?pid=215597#Description
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Save $20 and a life! Worth every cent.
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Broke a snatch strap at work the other day. They go off with a bang but not as much as a 35mm winch rope on a D8 Dozer.
I have seen people standing between 2 of these giving directions.
Some people you can't tell. We have been doing it this way for the last (insert number here) years. What do you know!
Regards
Crisp Image
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This is a sad story and unfortunately it will happen again, because people are not willing to listen to others who have done it correctly before. As a few of you guys have said,"She'll be right"attitude gets people into trouble and sometimes people die with that attitude. That story and similar ones should be on the front page of the state papers and also the 4x4 magazines, just to reinforce, the 'wrong'way to snatch out.
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Very sad storey
Having used and broken a few snatch staps during recoveries it realy does pay to use rated recovery points, shackles and most importantly a damper. Also after a hard recovery throw out you snatch strap and buy a new one it is cheap insurance.
When I do a recovery I remove the towbar tongue and pin, put the end of the statch strap in the towbar tube and put the pin and clip back through it. This is a much safer option and I prefer it to using shackles etc attached to the tow bar.
Regards
Jas
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Hi,
it is not just the tow ball, the tongue can fail as per the coroner's report in this Link (http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=12359.0).
cheers
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Found this on youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR22oP1WRtY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR22oP1WRtY&feature=related)
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3 kids lost their mum. I hope they weren't there to see this happen. So sad, and avoidable.
Jason B is right. Snatch using the pin!
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Saw something similar at double island point. Guy with a troll snatching a cruiser out backwards. Two big vehicles and one bogged down. Hooked up the snatch on to the tow ball on the cruiser. Saw it from a distance and stayed there as they were about to get into it. Towball let go sending through the back window of the troll and through the front. Must have missed the driver by 20cm - very lucky.
Have you got a pic of that broken towball?
I'd really like to see one broken buy a strap recovery.. I'm not advocating useing the towball by any stretch but I find it hard to believe it ever actually happens despite one poster stating that it was 'common'..
If anyone has a pic I'd love to see it.
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Snatch using the pin!
You know there is a whole buch of folks that will tell you that's no good too right?
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I have heard of the eyelets (recovery pionts) on old ARB bull bars being removed with a forceful snatch.
I knew a bloke in the Landrover Club of Victoria that did it once on purpose just to prove they aren't that strong. Not much difference between a towbsll, or a a heavy bow shackle when it's coming towards you flat out.
Take care out there.
Harvs
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You know there is a whole buch of folks that will tell you that's no good too right?
I have done a number of 4WD courses and it has been the recommended option on most of them. They recommended it over recovery points on the rear of the vehicle.
Regards
Jas
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A good read......For those that think they know ;D
https://juststraps.com.au/pdf/Snatch%20Straps%20Industry%20Guidelines%20Final%20March%2008%20Amended%20pdf.pdf
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You get a bit of a look at the towbar on this bit of news footage from the ABC, and whilst it doesn't show the towball, it does show where it was, and if you look even closer you can see the towball nut and thread still stuck in the hitch.
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/7pmtvnewswa/video/podcast/545137_20110820-Woman-killed_video4.m4v (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/7pmtvnewswa/video/podcast/545137_20110820-Woman-killed_video4.m4v)
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Have you got a pic of that broken towball?
I'd really like to see one broken buy a strap recovery.. I'm not advocating useing the towball by any stretch but I find it hard to believe it ever actually happens despite one poster stating that it was 'common'..
If anyone has a pic I'd love to see it.
No I don't. Once I saw what they were doing , I was a distance away and stayed there as I didn't want to get near it and they were just starting to move. I saw the strap let fly, then the window on the troll explode. Never saw the left over tow ball adn I don't think at that stage, they would have appreciated some rubber necker wanting to take photos as from the sounds of it the two vehicle owners didn't know each other prior and one was trying to help the other out. I left them 'discussing' why the towed vehicle's owner would put the strap over a towball and who was going to pay. Hmm time to leave!
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I have seen this photo on several site in the past and its enough for me to never try it
GG
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Have you got a pic of that broken towball?
I'd really like to see one broken buy a strap recovery.. I'm not advocating useing the towball by any stretch but I find it hard to believe it ever actually happens despite one poster stating that it was 'common'..
If anyone has a pic I'd love to see it.
Seriously? Annother person has just been killed by a sheared towball and you find it hard to believe that it actually happens?
(http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12359.0;attach=30844;image)
From an earlier topic: http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=12359.0
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(http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12359.0;attach=30844;image)
Oh, what a feeling!
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it doesnt happen, it cant happen, if I dont believe it, it wont happen, and if I ignore it it will go away
(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/jeeps_photo/Other%20Vehicles/Snatchbreakwindscreen.jpg)
(http://www.gqpatrol.com/pics/strap.jpg)
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I got one of these the other day
http://www.raysoutdoors.com.au/online-store/products/XTM-Hitch-Shackle.aspx?pid=215597#Description
I still don't get why people use these, why not just remove the hitch, slide the strap up into the receiver and put the pin through it (or is this too considered unsafe)? No shackle or other hunk of metal to possibly fail and you don't need to carry a potential missle around in the bacl of your car.
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I still don't get why people use these, why not just remove the hitch, slide the strap up into the receiver and put the pin through it (or is this too considered unsafe)? No shackle or other hunk of metal to possibly fail and you don't need to carry a potential missle around in the bacl of your car.
I use something similar only beacuse a couple of my strap ends are too large to fit inside the reciever hole
GG
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I use something similar only beacuse a couple of my strap ends are too large to fit inside the reciever hole
GG
Good point and worth checking, my snatch straps fit snuggley but I just got a new one so should check that one as well.
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I still don't get why people use these, why not just remove the hitch, slide the strap up into the receiver and put the pin through it (or is this too considered unsafe)? No shackle or other hunk of metal to possibly fail and you don't need to carry a potential missle around in the bacl of your car.
You have more of a chance on damaging your snatch straps by putting them into you receiver.
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You have more of a chance on damaging your snatch straps by putting them into you receiver.
Is that due to sharp edges on the receiver or only if it is pulling to the side i.e. not a straight pull?
Cheers
Mike
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You have more of a chance on damaging your snatch straps by putting them into you receiver.
Straps are cheap! ???
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I have heard of the eyelets (recovery pionts) on old ARB bull bars being removed with a forceful snatch.
I knew a bloke in the Landrover Club of Victoria that did it once on purpose just to prove they aren't that strong. Not much difference between a towbsll, or a a heavy bow shackle when it's coming towards you flat out.
Take care out there.
Harvs
I always thought those recovery points on the ARB bars were for winching only ?
yogi
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Straps are cheap! ???
Agree I have always done this (used the pin iside the receiver) and never had to retire a strap because of damage around the loop, always from damage in the centre of the strap.
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As a precaution when using a snatch strap (not around a tow ball) you can always use a tree trunck protector (3m) shackled to one rated recovery hook on the vehicle to be snatched and the other end of the tree trunk protector schackled to the snatch strap that is attached to the vehicle being recovered (that is on a second rated recovery point). That way if the recovery point or shackle give way on the end of the snatch strap, then the snatch strap will be limited by the tree trunck protector (to 3m travel). This will help minimise potention danger/damage of the flying snatch strap with a shackle tied to it. It will however travel at least 3m and take anything out in that area, so good idea to keep everyone as far away as possible.
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whilst this was happening just down the road - i pulled a guy out of a river who wanted me to use the towball - so many people think that this is ok. will be seeing him later this week and will show him this accident.
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PradoBB - this will limit the recourse at one vehicle but not if the recovery point on the other vehicle fails, it could still go flying. Plus not many have two recovery points. If using two recovery points on a vehicle my understanding is to utilise an Equaliser strap to help spread the force on the vehicle.
Doesn't appear that any attempt was made to dig the sand away from under and around the bogged vehicle in that footage either.
rusted tow ball. The other article also had rusted tow hitch. Unfortunately the good samaritan is the one often injured.
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I use something similar only beacuse a couple of my strap ends are too large to fit inside the reciever hole
GG
That is the same as mine. I have 2 straps with different size ends. one fits the other doesn't. I have the same set up you use GG.
Cheers
Rich
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As a precaution when using a snatch strap (not around a tow ball) you can always use a tree trunck protector (3m) shackled to one rated recovery hook on the vehicle to be snatched and the other end of the tree trunk protector schackled to the snatch strap that is attached to the vehicle being recovered (that is on a second rated recovery point). That way if the recovery point or shackle give way on the end of the snatch strap, then the snatch strap will be limited by the tree trunck protector (to 3m travel). This will help minimise potention danger/damage of the flying snatch strap with a shackle tied to it. It will however travel at least 3m and take anything out in that area, so good idea to keep everyone as far away as possible.
There is a name for this and you can buy straps with this type of safety strap built in, usually webbing (I will try and find a picture). You are however far better off using a length of quality rope or webbing tied to the snatch strap about three metres down its length with this secured to a recovery point rather than using a shackle to attach a winch strap. It needs to be loose so there is no chance of it taking weight when the strap stretches. This means if the strap breaks the rope will act as a dampner and stop the strap from recoiling further than the lenght of the rope so it should not contact the vehcle at the other end. Rope or webbing tied to the strap removes the potental of a shackle missile that you have if you use the winch strap option.
When I was living on the West Coast of Tassie I had two such lengths of bluewater climbing rope attached to my snatch strap permanently and just use to tie them off to the vehcle using a bowline rather than a shackle. The one time I did break a strap this system worked and I have been thinking about doing it to my new strap.
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There is a name for this and you can buy straps with this type of safety strap built in, usually webbing
http://www.4x4equip.com.au/showProduct/4x4+Accessories/Recovery+Gear/IDH-23-1/Recovery+Bridle
(http://www.gtp.com.au/4x4equip/largeimages/IDH-23-1.jpg)
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No not a load sharing strap or bridle but as actual lanyards attached to the snatch strap (and in this pictures case the load sharing strap) that act as a stop point for broken straps. Ideally they should not be stitched to the straps as these appear to be but should be a closed loop/knott friction fit. This allows them to stop the strap when it breaks but for the strap to then pull through the loop or knott to free itself if the other vehicle keeps moving rather than loading the lanyard with the force of the moving vehicle. As stated I used climbing rope when I did it but you could use decent tube webbing that you can buy from climbing stores.
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looks good burnsy, and agree with you comments for improvement. :cup:
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I still don't get why people use these, why not just remove the hitch, slide the strap up into the receiver and put the pin through it (or is this too considered unsafe)? No shackle or other hunk of metal to possibly fail and you don't need to carry a potential missle around in the bacl of your car.
Because they just don't know the dangers. Many people will believe that the towball is acceptable, they towed the van to Yamba with it after all. I've written before about how I watched the cops do this recovering people who'd slid off the road to Perisher. They just don't know better.
So, rather than being outraged, we all need to pass the word around.
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Here is another using webbing. I think when doing it with rope we just threw a fishermans knot around the strap and had one each end. Thinking more about it however by far and away the safest measn of doing it would be to use a length of rope that went the full length of the snatch with alpine butterfly knots every metre that the snatch passes through, make the rope about 1.5 metres longer than the strap at each end and tie it off to an unused recovery point at each end (no shackles as you have to tie a loop for a shackle anyway so just learn to tie a bowline). If you did this it would not matter where the strap or tow point broke it could not travel further than about 1.5 metres before it would be stopped by the rope. It may be over the top but you are always trusting one other persons recovery point as well as your own and what price is your and your families safety?
I have some bluewater rope lying about in the shed, i might make up one of these for my new strap and post a picture.
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So, rather than being outraged, we all need to pass the word around.
:cheers:
Very true mate. The first thing I do if playing in the 4wd is remove the towbar tongue (If not towing of course) as it screws with departure angles and if its not there during a recovery then no one is tempted to use it in hast. There should be no short cuts to a vehicle recovery.
Regards
Jas
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And if you are still unsure there is a good report in the latest Issue 169 of 4WD Action about winching and snatching in all different circumstances, And not a tow ball in sight
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Here is another using webbing. I think when doing it with rope we just threw a fishermans knot around the strap and had one each end. Thinking more about it however by far and away the safest measn of doing it would be to use a length of rope that went the full length of the snatch with alpine butterfly knots every metre that the snatch passes through, make the rope about 1.5 metres longer than the strap at each end and tie it off to an unused recovery point at each end (no shackles as you have to tie a loop for a shackle anyway so just learn to tie a bowline). If you did this it would not matter where the strap or tow point broke it could not travel further than about 1.5 metres before it would be stopped by the rope. It may be over the top but you are always trusting one other persons recovery point as well as your own and what price is your and your families safety?
I have some bluewater rope lying about in the shed, i might make up one of these for my new strap and post a picture.
that's close to what I was suggesting, but as someone said, you would need to do it at both ends.
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As a young fella i was in a mishap in my HG Holden coming back from Lakes Entrance via Falls creek where the roads guys had just resurfaced the then dirt road, 10" parnelly jones on the back wheels 8" whatevers on the front, we came up to a wide smooth corner and were just saying how the road works snuck up on us and how smooth it was when whoooaaa no steering, we weren't travelling fast but i lost all control and went over the edge arse up in the air hanging on by the muffler and a gas bottle size rock that happened to be pushed over the edge just stopping the driver side front wheel..... 10 mins later a cockie, must have easily been in his 80's in a short wheelbase came along an said hop in young fella and i'll pull you out.. he hooked me up to my tow ball of all things and before i could turn around to look backwards he fanged his barbed wired, straw filled dog carrier and literally ripped me up through the side of the road edge. My tow bar was bent nearly 70 degrees from straight and concertinaed my muffler to half it's length, he just unhitched said take it easy and drove off.... we to this day cannot for the life of us understand how it didnt snap off maybe.... because he took up the slack and used a chain or it was bloody good steel ball... will uncover some photos and show pic's if we can copy and post. :cheers:
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I always thought those recovery points on the ARB bars were for winching only ?
yogi
this really pisses me off - arb removed my recovery points when they fitted the bar - i asked them why and they said that the bar points were fine to snatch off.
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(http://soupisnotafingerfood.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/deadhorse.jpg)
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Hi
I queried the ARB bar for snatching and was told it was re-enforced to take shackles using a snatch strap.
cheers
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Hi
I queried the ARB bar for snatching and was told it was re-enforced to take shackles using a snatch strap.
cheers
Read plenty of reports saying for winching only ??? Personally I would not snatch someone out who was stuck if they wanted to attach to their ARB bar, or any other bar for that matter. I think rated hooks on the front are still the best bet, no need for shackels at all. I don't get all these new bright red recovery points that cost $100 and still require that you use a shackle, they should be drilled to take a recovery hook.
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I agree with burnsy 100%
Shackles should be avoided for snatch recoveries. Rated hooks are the go, much less chance of flying metal, even with dampers etc, if they are not on there in the first place it is much safer. I use shackles when needed for winch recoveries, just try to avoid them for snatches.
Regards
Jas
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ARB bar points like mine are for winching only, they're not load tested and not designed for snatching. I painted mine red so if somebody else was setting up for a recovery they wouldn't get confused with the factory tie down points. I would prefer a hook like my GQ as the less metal in a recovery the better.
(http://blkmav.com/prado/recovery1.jpg)
This is what happens when you snatch from them
(http://blkmav.com/prado/snatch1.jpg)
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D4D, what do you snatch from on that front end? Factory tiedown points with a load sharing strap? This is where it gets confusing, not being familiar with the Prado bar and points I would have attached to your red points if I was snatching you out and not told otherwise. I was only aware of the old ARB type winch points and have not seen these before and would have assumed they were rated aftermarket points and attched to them :'(. Being red makes it even more likely that I would have gone down this route.
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D4D, what do you snatch from on that front end?
I don't snatch, I winch :)
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I don't snatch, I winch :)
Fair enough but you can see the point about it being confusing ;D I
f snatching a Prado, where are the recommended rated points?
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Fair enough but you can see the point about it being confusing ;D
Absolutely
If snatching a Prado, where are the recommended rated points?
Some have fitted the Outback Ideas mounts however they are not rated. AJ has fabbed up some plates where he has mounted hooks. His is probably the best I have seen. I'll see if I can find his pics.
Edit - found a pic of his setup, this is what I will do one day.
(http://s3.postimage.org/xeiyzsor3/various_007.jpg)
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The less metal in a recovery, the better, is true enough, but the only reasons a shackle could become a projectile in a snatch recovery are:
- shackle not rated for the job (I wouldn't use less than a 4.7T)
- shackle has been compromised (age, corrosion, mis-use)
- shackle attached to an inappropriate point on the vehicle
- shackle used to join snatch straps
All of which are easy to stay on top of.
This is mine, two 16mm plates, each with 4.7T bow shackles and hooks. The hooks are going to come off because there is more likelyhood that a hook will fail than a shackle failing. At the rear is a 50x50mm hitch receiver with shackle point. There is nothing stronger available off the shelf than this and I can't think of any reason at all why you would fit a lesser set-up - people spout about cost, but cost is irrelevant when lives are at stake. Mine ended up at about $350 all-up, plus straps etc. but I know that nothing is going to depart my car and go through someone elses window, whether I'm pulling or being pulled.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6029/5990253115_786b178da6_b.jpg)
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This is mine, two 16mm plates, each with 4.7T bow shackles and hooks.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6029/5990253115_786b178da6_b.jpg)
Just wondering where you got the plates from, custom would be my guess, need to get some for the patrol
GG
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have a read of this
http://www.whyalla4wd.org.au/Shackles.html
Determine Speed of Shackle if Snatch Strap Breaks.
If all the Elastic Energy of the Snatch Strap is transferred to Kinetic Energy in the Shackle then the peak Speed of the Shackle as the Snatch Strap returns to it's 9.0m length can be determined. (Assuming no losses due to friction)
From Energy Conservation,
Elastic Energy in Snatch Strap = Kinetic Energy of Shackle
PEStrap = KEShackle
1/2 k x2 = 1/2 m v2
where k = spring constant
x = distance stretched (meters)
m = mass of shackle (kg)
v = velocity of shackle (m/s)
1/2 (20750N/m) (0.579m)2 = 1/2 (0.68kg) v2
v = 101m/s
or Peak Speed of Shackle v = 364 km/h
Snatch recoveries can be done safely and have been for decades just as they have been done unsafely for decades same as crossing the road.
I'd guess there would be 1000's of snatch recoveries a year around the place with a fatality every few years. 1 death is too many - agree, but there are worse averages out there and you will never get rid of the moron element in society '... shes right mate' - we have all seen it out there. In this case the OP posted about, it was a tragic situation with an innocent passenger.
People need to remember in most recoveries, you dont need to be doing 180 kph when the strap reaches its maximum length which is where most issues I have seen come in. If you do need to do this, then you should be winching, not snatching.
It may look "awesome" on the video as ya mates bullbar is ripped off smashing into the car infront and he has whiplash, but it is asking for problems.
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364km/h, hooley dooley, that is scary, and even more scary when you search the net and see how many accidents have happened bath fatal and non-fatal when snatching.
I think next time someone asks for me to snatch them out I will back my car up, put it in low, hand over the keys and go for a walk with my family :police:
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My Prado has the same factory point as D4D's (see inner loop in pic below). I have bought an equaliser strap to attach to this point on either side of the vehicle with rated shackles. These factory points seem to be a lot heavier duty than just tie downs. With the added force reduction of the equaliser strap, I'm assuming they are ok?
(http://blkmav.com/prado/snatch1.jpg)
On the rear, I use one of these.
(http://www.bushranger.com.au/hitch_recovery/recovery_hitch_7.jpg)
What are the thoughts on this setup? Particularly the front end.
Cheers, Sam.
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I think next time someone asks for me to snatch them out I will back my car up, put it in low, hand over the keys and go for a walk with my family :police:
Thats the other Option mate, back up to them hook up a tow chain and slowly and carefully pull them out. I have done it this way many times and whilst it is not ideal I have used winch extention straps for this purpose without any problems. There is no where near the amount of kenetic energy when using an extention strap. I have snapped a couple (very old and damaged, but was all we had - not my 4wd). When they broke they only recoiled about a metre and at no stage did they have the energy in them to get any where near the tow vehicle to be dangerous or cause damage.
Slow and steady is the key.
Regards
Jas
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What are the thoughts on this setup? Particularly the front end.
I don't see the use of the reciever points if your strap will fit into the reciever. As for the front point, I would check what others experiences have been on somewhere like Prado point.
On my 80 series I have been using the factory tiedown points (both with an equaliser strap) but intend to change this, not because of the point itself but the way in which it is attached to the chassis. The factory captive nuts are mild steel and not rated and have been known to have rated tensile bolts rip out of them. The nuts should be knocked off with a cold chisel before a load spreading plate drilled to the appropriate hole spacing is slid into the chassis and rated nuts used on top of this. I would assume the Prado nuts would be the same. This upgrade using rated hooks is on my to do list, am just trying to source two of the Toyota hooks that were available with the correct spacing holes in them.
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I don't see the use of the reciever points if your strap will fit into the reciever. As for the front point, I would check what others experiences have been on somewhere like Prado point.
Thanks for that. I will see if the snatch strap fits in the receiver and if so, ditch the recovery point.
I agree that slow and steady is the key. If you have to use a lot of speed and thus force, you need to do more digging IMHO!
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Thats the other Option mate, back up to them hook up a tow chain and slowly and carefully pull them out. I have done it this way many times and whilst it is not ideal I have used winch extention straps for this purpose without any problems. There is no where near the amount of kenetic energy when using an extention strap. I have snapped a couple (very old and damaged, but was all we had - not my 4wd). When they broke they only recoiled about a metre and at no stage did they have the energy in them to get any where near the tow vehicle to be dangerous or cause damage.
Slow and steady is the key.
Regards
Jas
Agreed Jas, I always dig first and themn try to extract without actually snatching. I have broken two sntah straps in my time and am quite happy for straps to break, it is steel breaking and ripping that worries me.
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Just wondering where you got the plates from, custom would be my guess, need to get some for the patrol
GG
GG they are off the shelf items from Superior Engineering. $90 per plate.
http://www.superiorengineering.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=4405
I thought 16mm might have been excessive, but I was recently snatched up Patrol Track at Scenic Rim Adventure Park, both my diffs were on the crown for 250-odd metres and the vehicle towing me was a 454-powered comp truck with two snatch straps and a winch extension strap - and I am glad I went heavy duty. We certainly put it to the test and she came through with no damage at all to the plates or the chassis after that little effort.
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My Prado has the same factory point as D4D's (see inner loop in pic below). I have bought an equaliser strap to attach to this point on either side of the vehicle with rated shackles. These factory points seem to be a lot heavier duty than just tie downs. With the added force reduction of the equaliser strap, I'm assuming they are ok?
I personally wouldn't. The only factory point I have seen that seems to get the nod from 4wd clubs is the Nissan Patrol hook, which I used a few times before I got my Superior plates. But the moment the Nissan hook strikes a rock (which is easy to do) I believe it should be retired.
The risk with any factory loop point is that it will let go, and because it can only be used with a shackle that shackle then becomes a projectile.
On the rear, I use one of these.
(http://www.bushranger.com.au/hitch_recovery/recovery_hitch_7.jpg)
If you already have it, and the shackle is stamped with the correct WLL rating information, I'd keep using it. The pin works fine too, but the advantage of the 50mm receiver hitch is that it removes the likelyhood that you'll deform the pin, and the shackle allows the strap to handle angles without it contacting the fairly sharp edge of the receiver itself.
From a Patrol4x4.com topic - "Snatch straps are rated with a MBS - minimum breaking strain, shackles are rated as WLL (working load limit). The ACTUAL breaking strain of a 4.5t shackle is actually well over 20t for it to meet Australian standards, WLL of 4.5t means that the shackle will withstand a force of a minimum of 4.5t without deforming in any way shape or form (ie the pin will be easy to remove). If the pin is hard to remove/unremoveable the shackle has deformed and must be thrown away."
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Info on how I fitted the passenger side plate can be found in this topic at P4x4:
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/nissan-patrol-gu-gr-10/98-gu-front-recovery-please-someone-give-straight-answer-71271/#post673731
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Industry guideline info on safe use of snatch straps here:
https://juststraps.com.au/pdf/Snatch%20Straps%20Industry%20Guidelines%20Final%20March%2008%20Amended%20pdf.pdf
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The risk with any factory loop point is that it will let go, and because it can only be used with a shackle that shackle then becomes a projectile.
I was thinking about this with regard to using an equalising strap, especially considering the talk about backup straps/rope in this thread. With the setup below, whether using factory tie down points or aftermarket points, if one side fails, then the shackle is attached to the equalising strap which is in turn still attached to the opposite side of the vehicle meaning there would be no flying shackle. The equalising strap effectively acts as a backup.
Is this theory correct?
(http://www.gtp.com.au/4x4equip/largeimages/IDH-23-1.jpg)
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I was thinking about this with regard to using an equalising strap, especially considering the talk about backup straps/rope in this thread. With the setup below, whether using factory tie down points or aftermarket points, if one side fails, then the shackle is attached to the equalising strap which is in turn still attached to the opposite side of the vehicle meaning there would be no flying shackle. The equalising strap effectively acts as a backup.
Is this theory correct?
(http://www.gtp.com.au/4x4equip/largeimages/IDH-23-1.jpg)
Had not thought about that when I was talking lanyards before but it seems sound. With that in mind, using an equalising strap at both ends would be pretty much totally safe so long as noone is standing near the vehicle.
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Always been on my mind and never bought up in conversations around the smoko table or camp fire but it is now very high on the agenda to make sure i relay all these points to the "group" and boys at work when the subject of straps and hitch points come up, great feed back and knowledge you guys :cheers:
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I got dragged into a safety meeting today at work, over an issue of towing vehicals out of a bogged situation...
The Shire Council has had the wind put up them by Workcover and the incidents that have happened over in the West, 13yo kid, died after being struck in the head by a snatch strap when it broke of the bogged vehical, plus a couple of tow ball incidents.
Anyway, a 4wd expert, gave the meeting (he has been there and done that, Workcover and RTA accredited...so to speak)...Never use a snatch strap to get a bogged vehical out...always use a tow line, min allowance 3000kg.
Then depending on the weight of the bogged vehical and the depth of the bogged vehical, then this is how it goes.
Bogged vehical 4wd Toyota Cruiser...2000kg min, without trailer or other weight on top or in the vehical...if there was, then it means a whole new type of hurt.
1/. Bogged to wheel studs....min tow line, 3500kg to 5000kg line.
2/. Bogged to just below wheels and just below door sill (multiply line capacity x2, in this case 5000kg tow line x2...10000kg tow line)
3/. Bogged to over wheels and above door sill, doors hard to open ( muliply capacity of line x3,...ie need a 15000kg tow line)
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3/. Bogged to over wheels and above door sill, doors hard to open ( muliply capacity of line x3,...ie need a 15000kg tow line)
May as well get the D8 with the 35mm winch rope out for that then.
You don't know what bogged is till you can walk out of a hi track dozer cabin onto the dirt without stepping down!
Regards
Crisp Image
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1/. Bogged to wheel studs....min tow line, 3500kg to 5000kg line.
2/. Bogged to just below wheels and just below door sill (multiply line capacity x2, in this case 5000kg tow line x2...10000kg tow line)
3/. Bogged to over wheels and above door sill, doors hard to open ( muliply capacity of line x3,...ie need a 15000kg tow line)
All good and well but the assumption made here is that the tow vehicle has the power and traction - and room - to do a straight tow. On a worksite with heavy machinery this is almost always going to be the case, but not so in more remote areas.
But yes, it's the safest way for sure. All situations should first be tested with a simple tow recovery before going to a snatch.
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The memo came around today at work, the retrieval of bogged vehicals / plant has been banned until further notice, the main problem is that the bogged vehical may not have the proper recovery attachment points for a bogged retrieval, regardless of what the recovery vehical may have.
On questioning this, it was relayed to me that the chassis recovery points on a vehical ie under front bumper etc are only ment for towing, not for recovery from a bogged situation. It was further said, that trying to recover the bogged vehical from these towing points, will null the warranty of the vehical and may cause insurance problems...both vehical and health(if physical injury results) also if retrieval is during working hours.... Workcover as well.
So one if the mowers gets bogged...I have to call in a designated team member who has been accredited to retrieve bogged vehicals / plant... so it will be hurry up and wait.
The fun police strike again.....