Author Topic: legal question - advice - car accident  (Read 21127 times)

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Offline scott oz

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2014, 10:37:10 AM »
Not that it matters anymore but the other driver should have accepted a payment plan from Mary, sold the car and pocketed the money which is well within his rights. Obviously the car had depreciated with the damage and the $1800 was the difference.

Mate,

The above is correct. The fact is Mary did the damage and agreed it was $1,800. The fact the car was sold means the owner would have got less for it in the perfect world $1,800.

Arguing over verbal contacts or not is a lot of "BS". Fact is Mary is no worse off.  It's a matter of who does Mary pay? Clearly she should be paying the owner.

By the way good Repair shop giving her the money back.

Offline jetcrew

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2014, 12:57:55 PM »
Seems a divided debate...

I have been on the receiving end of someone not paying and yes all the members who site "Moral Obligation" are correct.

however it must be noted that.

The Guy negotiated a settlement under the pretension of the vehicle being repaired to original state NOT a Financial loss settlement. Therefore I could argue on marys behalf that he has acted without Moral obligation, furthermore a stat dec from the PB would support the fact that he negotiated the contractual arrangement for repairs only or if he argues he never intended to get it repaired then he is equally screwed.

Or he changed his mind half way through .fair enough ...yet told no one and attempted to entice the PB to commit fraud by him billing Mary for the work that was never carried out.

I am under no doubt that MR PLOD has incurred a loss somewhere here through no fault of his own, however the ways and means he has gone about attempting to recover his loss are what I believe constitute a lake of moral obligation on his part.

It is also clearly obv that he himself does not hold insurance otherwise mary would be speaking with his insurer. 

I believe his loss needs to paid for but it is now up to him to demonstrate that loss, as he was the one who negotiated a "repair" contract not a Settlement for losses contract.

In all areas of law these are 2 very different things.

to prove his loss is $1800 he will need to satisfy the Tribunal that this loss is clearly evident. ...Not sure how he will go about that one.

Maybe a copy of the original advertisement, Showing the vehicle priced within the right market value for its age ect. a stat dec from the purchaser stating that he paid $1800 less than he otherwise would have due to the damage caused by mary. Therefore his financial loss is $1800.00. remember this is now a claim for financial loss NOT REPAIRS. The Burden  of proof will lie with him to prove his loss.

So he will have a fun time spending hours and hours doing all his paperwork ect and he will still need to answer the point of why he tried to convince the panel beater to commit fraud in order to obtain the $1800.

I would argue for mary that he had the panel beater increase the cost of repairs on the quote in order to maximise his return and furthermore any interest obtained by the panel beater be subtracted from any settlement.  I would site countless rulings where a liable party (insurer) has paid less in total losses than the quote of repairs. So it is not a fait accompli that the figure of $1800 is the sum of his financial losses.

Will get messy if he sold the car with a road worthy and it had panel damage.

He has played the game and now he looks like working very hard for any $$$ he might get.

Mary is no longer liable for repairs as the car is goooooone but she is liable for any financial loss her accident caused MR PLOD.... he just needs to prove what the figure is.


Moral of this story... INSURANCE ;D ;D ;D ;D and don't be doddgy ..

Jet ;D ;D ;D




 
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Offline muzza01

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2014, 02:36:51 PM »
A couple of points that I would like to address

As I said earlier, she is not my daughter but my sons girlfriend.

I was proud to find out that Mary showed good character and waited for Mr Smith to return to his vehicle so she could inform him of the damage and claim responsibility.  Although this may have been the right thing to do, it is rare to encounter these days.  Over the last 25 odd years, my wife and I have had our cars scratched, dented and run in to at least 10 times without anyone sticking around to admit their fault.

I agree 1000% that she should have 3rd party insurance. It should be compulsory. My sons car is insured and always will be (I know because I pay it)

I agree that Mary caused the damage and that it is her responsibility.  If the car was repaired back to original condition then she was going to pay full restitution.  It was not until Mr Smith sold the car, cancelled the repair and wanted to pocket the money that Mary changed her mind.  mr Smith could have sold the car for full value and informed the new owner that they could have the car repaired free of charge at ABC panelbeaters.

I will stick to my original advice that I gave Mary. Offer him $1000 cash as recompense or let him take you to court. He broke their verbal agreement not her.  He on sold the car and wanted to keep the cash.

Offline scott oz

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2014, 02:59:18 PM »
Jetcrew

Let’s be clear the law doesn’t necessarily equal what is “morally” right. The law follows a reasonably clear set of common law rules dating back 100’s years which have been modified, enhanced and invented, some would say bastardised by governments (Legislation).

What you have with Mary is very simple. Mary’s damaged Mr Plod’s car. The law requires Mary to put Mr Plod back in the same position as Mr Plod was prior to the incident. This is done by financial compensation to Mr Plod by Mary.

The measure of Mr Plod’s loss is the PB quote $1,800. Mary accepted this and agreed to pay and did pay the PB $1,800 directly. If Mary was to infer the PB quote was excessive or “loaded up” Mary’s missed her opportunity. This should have been done at when Mary agreed to pay.

The only argument Mary has would be to argue the sale price Mr Plod received was not fully offset by the damage. Better put, if Mary were to pay Mr Plod the full $1,800 this added to the sale price would mean Mr Plod was being over compensated

Car value no damage    $7,500
Accident damage    $1,800
Car with damage    $5,700

Sale of car

Sold for               $6,000
Accident damage     $1,800
Mr Plod gets      $7,800
Mr Plod is               $300 better off/over compensated

In this case and assuming you know the sale price and market value Mary would be entitled to pay Mr Plod $1,500.
There are variations on this but the above is the basic principal. I’ve done 1,000's of these.

As to the PB good bloke for allowing the time payments and returning the money. But as you say probably pissed off he didn’t get his work.

Offline jetcrew

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2014, 03:49:35 PM »
Jetcrew

Let’s be clear the law doesn’t necessarily equal what is “morally” right. The law follows a reasonably clear set of common law rules dating back 100’s years which have been modified, enhanced and invented, some would say bastardised by governments (Legislation).

What you have with Mary is very simple. Mary’s damaged Mr Plod’s car. The law requires Mary to put Mr Plod back in the same position as Mr Plod was prior to the incident. This is done by financial compensation to Mr Plod by Mary.

The measure of Mr Plod’s loss is the PB quote $1,800. Mary accepted this and agreed to pay and did pay the PB $1,800 directly. If Mary was to infer the PB quote was excessive or “loaded up” Mary’s missed her opportunity. This should have been done at when Mary agreed to pay.

The only argument Mary has would be to argue the sale price Mr Plod received was not fully offset by the damage. Better put, if Mary were to pay Mr Plod the full $1,800 this added to the sale price would mean Mr Plod was being over compensated

Car value no damage    $7,500
Accident damage    $1,800
Car with damage    $5,700

Sale of car

Sold for               $6,000
Accident damage     $1,800
Mr Plod gets      $7,800
Mr Plod is               $300 better off/over compensated

In this case and assuming you know the sale price and market value Mary would be entitled to pay Mr Plod $1,500.
There are variations on this but the above is the basic principal. I’ve done 1,000's of these.

As to the PB good bloke for allowing the time payments and returning the money. But as you say probably pissed off he didn’t get his work.

I fully agree with you ScottOZ... it is now up to mr Smith to work out his financial loss, establish the proofs of these losses to a satisfactory standard to compel a Tribunal to rule that Mary owes him that amount.

In relation to Morally.... I was making reference that for others to imply Mary has done or is doing anything immoral is not fair IMHO. She upheld her end of the deal.  The deal is now in renegotiation stage and I am sure she will pay the new amount as required.

Anyway the law is the law and Mr Smith can make a claim against Mary .. hell he could claim alot more than $1800  if he wants to (up to the small claims ceiling of course) but there still exists the  PROOF ..he must satisfy the tribunal of the Loss.  weather that's for $1 or $10000 he must prove the LOSS.

Should be pretty simple resolution for all parties If Mr Smith is prepared to be honest about his actual loss and obv looks like mary is a decent person. So should not be hard

But poor old Mr PB gets nothing for all his time he should make a claim against Mr SMITH for time lost on quotes and management of the situation. ;D ;D

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Offline alnjan

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2014, 04:09:26 PM »
If this matter was being dealt with by an Insurance company would Mr Smith get anything.  NO.  The Insurance Company pays the bloke that does the work.  Mr Smith is not entitled to any money for repairs to his vehicle. 

With the vehicle being sold before any work being done, the Insurance Company would want to establish the agreement between seller and buyer.  If buyer bought the vehicle as is in a damaged condition or at an agreed price with the vehicle repaired by the Insurance Company. 

Either way Mr Smith does not pocket any money.  The Insurer pays the one that repaired the vehicle. 

If the vehicle was a write off, then the owner gets the payout. 
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Offline scott oz

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2014, 04:25:44 PM »
If this matter was being dealt with by an Insurance company would Mr Smith get anything.  NO.  The Insurance Company pays the bloke that does the work.  Mr Smith is not entitled to any money for repairs to his vehicle. 

With the vehicle being sold before any work being done, the Insurance Company would want to establish the agreement between seller and buyer.  If buyer bought the vehicle as is in a damaged condition or at an agreed price with the vehicle repaired by the Insurance Company. 

Either way Mr Smith does not pocket any money.  The Insurer pays the one that repaired the vehicle. 

If the vehicle was a write off, then the owner gets the payout.


"Wrong"

Mr Smith's insurer would "normally" have paid the PB and then recovered off Mary.

Mr Smiths insurer "may", though "unusual" have paid Mr Smith. There is nothing to prevent his insurer from doing this. When they do  this they usually cancel the policy so he cant claim again in the event of another accident.

Don't confuse what usually happens to what can be done by an insurer. For obvious reasons Insurers dont like paying for repairs where there is a chance the repairs could be "claimed again". Was a good trick in the "old" days.


Offline kylarama

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2014, 04:56:49 PM »
Not sure about it these days, but years ago a insurance company paid me out directly.  I only had 3rd party and a full comp driver was at fault in a roundabout altercation, so I had to deal direct with the blokes insurance company.  Gave them 3 quotes and they gave me a cheque for the cheapest not the panel shop.
Only took me 3 months to get the money!  I've had full comp ever since then.



I will stick to my original advice that I gave Mary. Offer him $1000 cash as recompense or let him take you to court. He broke their verbal agreement not her.  He on sold the car and wanted to keep the cash.

Good advice and a good lesson for her.  With the remaining $800, fling the panel beater something for being decent about it and spend the rest on insurance.  If there's a next time she can pay her excess fee and not have to deal with this type of stuff.



Offline oldmate

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2014, 05:06:50 PM »



Good advice and a good lesson for her.  With the remaining $800, fling the panel beater something for being decent about it and spend the rest on insurance.  If there's a next time she can pay her excess fee and not have to deal with this type of stuff.

Agreed
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Offline dazzler

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2014, 05:53:34 PM »
This is really contract law.

Sweet, mysterious contract law.

Here is a question.

Your name is Bob and you have a local pub you drink at.

You invite Ted around for a ginger beer.

You buy the ginger beer from the barman Pete and give it to Ted.

Pete buys his beer from Graemes Ginger Beer Company.

Ted drinks half the GB, spits some out and finds a decomposed snail in the drink.

To find fault you need a contract - who is the contract between.

 :D
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Offline Mrs smith

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2014, 06:07:22 PM »
Years ago (mid 90s) I had a accident where a guy done a U-turn in-front of me without checking over his shoulder first, (i was in his blind spot traveling at about 50klm an hour in the main st of a town. Bang T-boned a 6month old falcon in my hilux, had a witness swapped info
guy seem all legit unbeknown to me (he was mr dodge ) false license and details. My car was not roadworthy to keep driving for the long term so after getting 3 quotes and finding out his details stopped short of helping me recover my losses/repairs I bought a cheap car to get to work, took 18months to track the sod down but through trail and error I found his insurance company and found that they where informed that his car had been involved in a hit and run type of accident with know-one hanging around to take the rap. (me) I informed them that if they check the repair details they'll see that the damage repaired would correspond with me version and that I also had a witness, they then asked me to have my car quoted for an upto date repair cost and forward it to them. Next thing I know is a panel beater rings and says your car has been approved for repair bring it in, to which I say I'm not fixing the car as I've had to get another to which he answers then you'll have to ring the insurance company and see whether they'll pay you out (which I did) received a cheque couple days later. (all settled) Bought old mate the panel beater a box and apologized for his time lost and the effort he'd put into quoting the repair for me and the rest is history. Oh, I wasn't insured either at the time. (Lesson learnt) I don't see much difference in my out come to (mr smiths) To be honest I think he was more than reasonable agreeing to wait for the money for the repair to come together for the repair and the young lady has done the right thing up until receiving to money back (well done to her). Now Mr smith needs to forward the bill/quote to her for the damage before receiving the compensation, signing off that alls settled. I doubt very much I would have received any money from a company like suncorp metway if I was trying to profit fraudulently.  If you damage someones property your obligated to repair, replace or compensate them for there loss. 
I have the feeling to many people watch TV court, peoples court or judge judy. lol     
I've also received a cheque from trans pacific for a similar type of situation where they
caused 5K of damage to a vehicle that I repaired myself. You don't have to like or be happy about it, it's just what happens in the real world. Saved a few bob on this one
which made up for the inconvenience as far as I'm concerned.
 

Offline Swannie

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2014, 06:43:28 PM »
my head hurts.....

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Offline staghornflat

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2014, 07:00:08 PM »
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Offline Ynot

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2014, 07:28:00 PM »
Agreed
X2
If he doesn't take the grand let it go through the process. It will be recognised that the offer was made and likely to be seen as an appropriate offer given the circumstances.
Good luck


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Offline prodigyrf

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2014, 12:00:40 AM »
OK we set out the legal position and I'd suggest it's the same outcome as the moral position (assuming for the sake of it Mary's extra damage to the already dented old banger Commode reduced its sale price by around $1000)
So Mary does the right thing waiting for the owner to fess up and both parties agree the PB chosen is a fair and reasonable repairer and it will cost $1800 which Mary says she'll need time to pay to the PB as you know how it is fellers. At that point our moral owner fesses up that he was about to get rid of the old banger anyway and selling it like it is should only reduce the price by a grand max, so howsabout that Mary?

Same deal as Judge Judy I'd suggest and why we have the laws we have on this issue.
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Offline oldmate

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2014, 06:28:02 AM »
OK we set out the legal position and I'd suggest it's the same outcome as the moral position (assuming for the sake of it Mary's extra damage to the already dented old banger Commode reduced its sale price by around $1000)
So Mary does the right thing waiting for the owner to fess up and both parties agree the PB chosen is a fair and reasonable repairer and it will cost $1800 which Mary says she'll need time to pay to the PB as you know how it is fellers. At that point our moral owner fesses up that he was about to get rid of the old banger anyway and selling it like it is should only reduce the price by a grand max, so howsabout that Mary?

Same deal as Judge Judy I'd suggest and why we have the laws we have on this issue.

Yep, if I was mary then I would pay the G and run.  :cup:
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Offline Oldandslow

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2014, 08:13:50 AM »
Unless I am missing something these are the facts.

Mary backs into car causing damage and does the right thing, waits for owner to return and offers to make good.

Expert assesses damage at $1800 and Mary agrees to pay.

Mary saves up the $1800 using a payment plan with panel beater.

Car owner sells car before repair is started.

What the owner does with his car has not changed the fact that Mary caused an assessed $1800 damage to his property and agreed to pay restitution. Any attempt to reduce the amount through legal argument is just an attempt to avoid what Mary has already admitted was her liability.

Pay the $1800 to the owner and get on with your life Mary. You have demonstrated you are a good person by doing the right thing in the first place, don't lower you morals by trying to find a legal way out now.

Offline Darcy7

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2014, 09:13:00 AM »
The way I see it there are 2 questions:

1.  Does Marty have a moral obligation to give the money to the guy?
2.  Does Mary have a legal obligation to give the guy the money (or a portion thereof)

We could go around and around in circles with the second point for years. Contract law is so grey its not funny (trust me I know, its what I do for a living..!!) and, at the end of the day, there are only 7 people in the country who's opinion will matter, depending on how far Mary and the car owner are prepared to go.

Muzza, I'd suggest if Mary wants a legal opinion, she should talk to a solicitor.  Just remember they will not give her a specific answer, just a choice for a course of action.  Their advice will also cost money. They may advise her on the path of least resistance (and cost). 

As for moral advice, again....everyone here has different morals to each other.  If it were me I'd offer the guy $1000 and see what he says.  He's the one paying the solicitor.  Worst he can say is no and you're back to square 1. 

Ultimately, Mary will have to be able to sleep at night with whatever decision she makes.     


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Offline prodigyrf

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2014, 10:04:46 AM »
And in the case of Mary having TPPI her insurer would have handled it similarly. ie Dear Owner- We accept the claim for repairs of $1800. However we assess the value of your car at $3000 before the damage and now $2000 in its current condition. As a result we are prepared to offer you $1000 as full settlement and you keep the car or we dispose of the car and pay you the sum of $3000. Yours Truly...

Owner naturally accepts the latter under the circumstances unless he wants to argue in Court over the valuations.

Edit: Bearing in mind that $1800 of damage sounds like a scrape to a couple of panels as we all know the cost of minor repairs nowadays. ie daughter backs a Subaru Impreza wagon into a bollard in an unfamiliar carpark and $4000 consists of catching the corner of the bumper, breaking the taillight and barely pushing the back quarter panel out of shape over the rear wheel. Complete quarter panel cut and shut due to its double panel hi-tensile construction.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:21:26 AM by prodigyrf »
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Offline Ratbag

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2014, 10:22:39 AM »
Just to clarify a point.

There are six essential elements of a contract, all of which must be met:

1) Offer;

2) Acceptance;

3) Valuable consideration;

4) Capacity to contract;

5) Genuineness of consent;

6) Legality of objects.

All six elements must be met, and as previously observed by others, there are many, many rules devised by the courts over the centuries ...

As for the question posed by Dazzler, liability revolves around whether the ginger beer was served in a glass or in a sealed bottle or other container, and on whether it was cloudy or clear ginger beer ... ;) (the rule in Donoghue vs Stevenson may apply ... ).

Offline rotare

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2014, 10:30:05 AM »
In defence of the commodore guy with the damaged car.  There's been a lot of assumptions made of his character, his motives and that his car was likely a POS.

But what if the car was his pride and joy?  He's done nothing more than come out to the car park to find it dented up.  It may seem superficial damage to some, but put yourself in his shoes and I bet you'd be peeved if it happened to your car.  Cars are never the same after being repaired. 

It's also great that Mary stuck around and a lot of emphasis has been placed on this point, but honestly, so she should have!  So not only has she dinged up his car, she's inconvenienced him by sending him to get a quote for repairs and then he's had to wait to get it fixed because she hasn't got the money to make it happen immediately.

So through no fault of his own he's involved in an accident, he's forced to wait for repairs but then to top it off decides he'd rather have the cash - but Mary and the repairer decide he doesn't deserve it.....

He could have potentially been a real *rick about it all - shopped around for the most expensive quote, been more demanding on payment and getting his car fixed, but from what we know he wasn't any of these things.  I think the guy needs to be given a bit more credit as some people wouldn't have been so obliging.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:35:34 AM by rotare »

Offline dazzler

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2014, 12:35:12 PM »
Hey ratbag. I reckon if the acceptance of the contract was to fix the vehicle once the $ were paid to the repairer then the contract is between Mary and the car owner to fix the car. Once the car is sold the capacity is gone. Thoughts ?


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Offline Bird

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2014, 12:44:08 PM »
Quote from: Bird
What accident?

btt.....
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Offline Ratbag

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2014, 01:06:45 PM »
Gidday Dazzler

Hey ratbag. I reckon if the acceptance of the contract was to fix the vehicle once the $ were paid to the repairer then the contract is between Mary and the car owner to fix the car. Once the car is sold the capacity is gone. Thoughts ?


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The matter is tricky in Contract Law, IMHO. Other than as a side issue, Contract doesn't apply at all in the issue between Mary and Commodore. His remedy and her liability lie in Tort (i.e. in Equity, in the main).

There are also Equity issues per se that could impact also.

IMHO, the morality is easier to sort out than the legalities in this case! Now, there's a turn up for a change!!

Morally, it is my belief that Mary should pay to the Commodore owner ["Commodore"] the difference in the price he received (assuming the transaction between Commodore and buyer were at arm's length ... ), and what he could reasonably have expected to have received had his car not been damaged by Mary. I had a similar "discussion" with a loss adjuster, then the loss adjuster's boss, WRT my niece's car when she was tail-ended by another car - long story ...

So if he got $5,000 and he could reasonably have been expected to get $5,800 if the damage caused by Mary had either not occurred, or had been repaired, then Mary would, in Equity, be obliged to pay him the $800 difference.

At Law, things get much more complicated, as the replies in this thread rightly attest.

AFAICS, a number of things impact here:

1) The car is no longer available for inspection (presumably) by an independent third party (e.g. his insurer/loss adjuster - even ... ). This makes it difficult, if not impossible to assess what the difference in value might have been.

2) In the absence of any pre-sale valuation of the car "as was", and the absence of any evidence from Commodore as to what he got from the sale, the point in (1) makes it even more difficult for Commodore to sustain any claim against Mary. Any proceedings should start with Mary's legal adviser issuing interrogatories in respect of these matters.

3) Chances are that he sold the car for more than the Glass's Guide price (bloody hard not to ... ), in which case there has been no detriment to him at Law.

4) Mary patently wants to do the right thing, and good on her for that. Determining what "the right thing" is, is the difficult part.

5) Mary could start by asking the questions I have outlined above in (2) and (3) to attempt to establish what "the right thing" is as a quantum of damages that Mary should pay to Commodore.

6) In the absence of any documentation being forthcoming from Commodore, I would advise Mary to: a) seek legal advice; and b) hang on to all the money until there is some concrete evidence that shows that Commodore has suffered any kind of financial loss. Payment of any amount could be interpreted as an admission of some liability, where there is none ATM on the (total lack of) evidence to hand presently.

Just IMHO, and FWIW.

[EDIT]

Another thought is that if he were insured, Mary's liability would initially extend only to payment of his excess. His insurer would then attempt to recover the balance over and above his excess from Mary, but they could be constrained by the court if she pleaded financial hardship. It is a tricky matter, whichever way one slices it.

[end edit]
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 01:11:39 PM by Ratbag »

Offline dazzler

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Re: legal question - advice - car accident
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2014, 02:33:31 PM »
See - simple.  LOL


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