Author Topic: Any truth in this?  (Read 47191 times)

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Offline Ratbag

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2014, 11:41:13 AM »
Gidday Grv


note this is on the front of a 2.5 t supreme that has two chains
ADS

Struth, mate! I am surprised that you can even fit that dinky little thing through both the chain link and the tow bar attachment point!

Maybe I will stick with using the D-shackles that I have been using for a long time now. They have an 8mm D, with a 9mm pin, attaching unmarked 8mm welded link chains (2x) that are welded to the towing A-frame. These should be adequate for my (un-braked) trailer that cannot legally weigh more than 750 Kgs!!

Interesting the comment about not welding the chains to the A-bar. Having done the odd bit of welding during my life (oxy and arc), I was always taught that a good weld should not be able to be broken at the weld, if done properly. When I was being taught, my welds were put in a vice and belted until something broke. They didn't tear at the weld.

Now, no one in their right mind is going to silver braze the chain on, or even braze it on. I also understand that some grades of steel are not weldable, or not easily weldable. Stainless steels are a perfect example of this, but there are others. I find it difficult to believe that a chain maker making general purpose, welded link chain would choose such a steel grade for the purpose. I can easily see that a company making hoist and lifting chains may well choose to do so. This is where this whole document comes badly unstuck, IMNSHO. It attempts to apply extremely simple "rules" (simplistic, perhaps?) to a complex subject. Making "rules" that cannot apply generally.

Almost every domestic trailer I have ever seen, of whatever kind, has the safety chains welded to the A-bar. Barring the combination of two bad welds, a break-away accident (how often are these seen on the news, or anywhere else?), and grossly inadequate D-shackles or bow shackles (just about anything that's big enough to fit is likely to be strong enough to hold ... ), what does this document actually achieve? What will it prevent? A million-to-one, or billion-to-one accident? Maybe. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

As I said before - their heart is in the right place, their intentions are good and pure, the document is a joke, technically speaking.



Offline doc evil

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2014, 11:56:02 AM »
Sorry, I didn't realise that the sometimes crazy decisions made by USA courts were even treated as obiter dicta in Oz courts, let alone as precedents, even when the ratio decidendi can be ascertained ...

BTW, I can assure you that the winch I have is designed for both lifting and rolling loads. Perhaps that might be why the manufacturer gives different safe working numbers for each type of load?


I'm going on documentation issued by engineers aust. and it all revolves around the word "safe".

some interesting reading.....
http://cica.com.au/docs/default-source/technical-information/working-load-limit-information.pdf?sfvrsn=2
http://www.irata.org/uploads/healthandsafety/WLLSWL.pdf
http://www.centraloverland.com/2011/04/working-load-limit-wll-safe-working-load-swl-minimum-breaking-strength-mbs/

Also, as I've stated, the most important issue is ALL rated equipment is for vertical "lifting" NOT horizontal "pulling"..........



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Offline jetcrew

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2014, 12:02:24 PM »
What a crock.....

If they want compliance as someone said early on ....it starts with manufacturers   This country amazes me sometimes, old mate works hard his whole live pays tax saves up to buy a caravan/camper hands over said hard earned $$$ drives away and 6 mths later gets fined for chains that are to small or d-shackles that are not rated or specd correctly ..However these are the chains placed on there and shackles supplied by the the manufacturer.

If the GOVT is really keen about safety not $$$ raising they will immediately  introduce mandatory compliance for all manufacturers and hefty fines for non compliance BY THE MANUFACTURER.  NOT sting the end user.

If it is a home made trailer then by all means sting the builder himself. Spending 50K on a van to then get fined for a chain ect is a joke and should be rectified.

one could very well argue that the lawfull defence of "mistake of fact" could be argued in that the end user was mistaken in the belief the van meet the required standards as it was registered by the state authority and the manuf had the relevant licences to manufacture such a product. Furthermore the builder was reckless as to the likelihood that their fail to comply could cause an accident or death.

If a car manuf has failed to meet a safety standard in their process the cars are recalled at the expense of the car manuf ..

if they are really keen to have this stuff implemented set a date xx/xx/xxxx .......from this date on ALL trailers registered MUST have chains applied with hammerlocks to chassis and rated shackles used. failure to do so will be a breach of the act or whatever to which the manufacture can/will be held liable in the event of an accident relating to the failure of said equip. I declaration is made at point of registration ..why not make it worth something.  a safe towing placard or something just like the elec and gas cert in a van.

Just my 2c ... I am all for increased safety but it means nothing if 2000 trailers are day are getting registered without the correct gear.

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Offline ScottT

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2014, 12:09:03 PM »
What a crock.....

If they want compliance as someone said early on ....it starts with manufacturers   This country amazes me sometimes, old mate works hard his whole live pays tax saves up to buy a caravan/camper hands over said hard earned $$$ drives away and 6 mths later gets fined for chains that are to small or d-shackles that are not rated or specd correctly ..However these are the chains placed on there and shackles supplied by the the manufacturer.

If the GOVT is really keen about safety not $$$ raising they will immediately  introduce mandatory compliance for all manufacturers and hefty fines for non compliance BY THE MANUFACTURER.  NOT sting the end user.

If it is a home made trailer then by all means sting the builder himself. Spending 50K on a van to then get fined for a chain ect is a joke and should be rectified.

one could very well argue that the lawfull defence of "mistake of fact" could be argued in that the end user was mistaken in the belief the van meet the required standards as it was registered by the state authority and the manuf had the relevant licences to manufacture such a product. Furthermore the builder was reckless as to the likelihood that their fail to comply could cause an accident or death.

If a car manuf has failed to meet a safety standard in their process the cars are recalled at the expense of the car manuf ..

if they are really keen to have this stuff implemented set a date xx/xx/xxxx .......from this date on ALL trailers registered MUST have chains applied with hammerlocks to chassis and rated shackles used. failure to do so will be a breach of the act or whatever to which the manufacture can/will be held liable in the event of an accident relating to the failure of said equip. I declaration is made at point of registration ..why not make it worth something.  a safe towing placard or something just like the elec and gas cert in a van.

Just my 2c ... I am all for increased safety but it means nothing if 2000 trailers are day are getting registered without the correct gear.

Jet ;D ;D

Agree

Otherwise why bother with a VIN plate ?
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Offline DaveR

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2014, 12:14:06 PM »
Well said Jetcrew.
For this to be fixed correctly, it must start with the licencing folk who then has a bit of a crack down on the manufactures and retailers of these products. This wont happen unless  we send a note to the local authority about this concern, such has been done by many about the Hitch and compliance issue etc etc.
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Offline firefox

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2014, 12:37:58 PM »
it was interesting today... I am in Port Macquarie currently and needed a new door handle after the daughter decided to snap it into 2.
Went into the local caravan supplier parts and new sales.

Load and behold on the floor of their dealership is a HUGE BOX (i mean huge) of rated shackles.. (probably about 200 shackles)

Got talking with them, and they had been hit by inspectors a few weeks ago, querying rating of shackles (this is in NSW).. Although they did not get in trouble as they are selling new jayco's etc... They ARE... replacing all of their shackles (not marked) with new rated shackles..

Had a good chat with him for about 20 mins. Aparently this is starting to happen around the trap's he had received 7 phone calls in the last few weeks from people with their vans that had been pulled over in NSW.. So it's not just QLD..

However as we were talking i said to him the biggest joke is the fact that JAYCO are supplying them with unrated shackles (at least they are not stamped..) Sounds like they are stuck in the middle.

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Offline Ratbag

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2014, 12:41:47 PM »
Gidday DE


I'm going on documentation issued by engineers aust. and it all revolves around the word "safe".

some interesting reading.....
http://cica.com.au/docs/default-source/technical-information/working-load-limit-information.pdf?sfvrsn=2
http://www.irata.org/uploads/healthandsafety/WLLSWL.pdf
http://www.centraloverland.com/2011/04/working-load-limit-wll-safe-working-load-swl-minimum-breaking-strength-mbs/

Also, as I've stated, the most important issue is ALL rated equipment is for vertical "lifting" NOT horizontal "pulling"..........


Thanks for the links. Interesting reading, particularly the second one.

However, they merely reinforce the point I was making.

The first is basically stating that the "new" system is a dog's breakfast.

The second states that WLL can apply to either a dead lift or rolling/supported loads.

The third is stating that the whole thing has become a mess ...

Sorry for the very rough analysis and précis, but I haven't the time to be more precise than this. The documents speak for themselves as to what a mess this has become, all because some USA court doesn't like the word "safe"! Well, here's some news for them - There's no such thing as "safe". Being alive is inherently dangerous. One can take reasonable care, however. This is a legally defined concept.

It is up to the manufacturers and government to ensure that we are properly informed so that we can all exercise that reasonable care that the Law of Torts requires of us. The document under discussion does absolutely nothing to further that cause, IMO. That is the point I have been trying to make all along.

Offline Mallory Black

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2014, 01:09:28 PM »
well I got no one to pass the buck onto because I made my own CT! 

having said that... anyone who has had to fend off litigators (who want your money hook or crook) and insurance investigators some of who will try anything it seems avoid payin' a claim and try layin' the blame... I would prefer to just avoid the hassle if that kind of junk is going on out there so regardless I'll be onto some rated shackles and show them all my middle finger.

This sounds A LOT LIKE the thread we had a while ago where there was talk of some enterprising coppers here in SE QLD who thought they could book car owners for having unroadworthy vehicles whilst they are up on trailers or in workshops etc. many people paid the fines, only a few fought them and got the tickets torn up.

it's called using the rules and not following the rules..........

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Offline Ratbag

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2014, 01:16:08 PM »
The following from:

http://www.goseeaustralia.com.au/article/901/National_rules_short_on_specifics_but_South_Australian_police_urge_rated_shackles_for_towing_safety/

Senior Constable First Class Paul Bryant South Australia Police Road Safety Centre said:

“I have received a determination from DPTI (Transport SA) in relation to D Shackles when they are used to attach a trailer safety chain to a motor vehicle as prior to this determination it was suggested by the Vehicle Standards Section of DPTI that, as the actual D shackle forms part of the safety chain when attached, then that D shackle must also comply with Australian Standards", Senior Constable First Class Paul Bryant said.
Seriously endorsed shackle.


"As you are aware, the safety chains themselves (
on trailers manufactured after August 1989) are required to meet the requirements of AS 4177.4 Caravan and light trailer towing components -

Safety chains up to 3500 kg capacity and therefore must be stamped with the rating information, but it seems that the D Shackles are not covered by this standard. They are actually covered by AS 2741 Shackles", he said.

"Those who have read the SAPOL Traffic Information Page Tip 11 would be aware SAPOL have stated that the public should fit rated shackles. DPTI agrees that this is good advice, but it is not law. Unfortunately the rules regarding D shackles are not explicit".

"Neither ADR 62 Mechanical Connection Between Vehicles or rule 158 of the Road Traffic (Vehicle Standards) Rules 1999 do any more than require shackles to be strong enough to meet the specified loads. DPTI suggests that several websites, including some of the other state transport authorities, call up this standard, although this is advice and not law in all of these jurisdictions".

"A shackle complying with this standard will be stamped with rating information and this is sufficient proof that the shackle complies with the law. However, the lack of such stamping is not proof that the shackle fails to meet the law".
Safety chains on GSA Blue Sky caravan


"DPTI also state that there are mixed views nationally as to whether karabiners are shackles in this context. They suggest that (a) the various laws and standards refer to either ‘shackles’ or ‘D shackles’ and nowhere mention karabiners or other like devices and (b) they very much doubt that a karabiner that would pass through a properly rated safety chain would have sufficient strength to support the required loads. They would therefore strongly advise against the use of karabiners in place of D shackles".


Emphasis added - RB

My trailer was manufactured before the relevant date, 1 September, 1989, so the AS 4177 does not apply to it ... Just another little hiccup, folks ...  ;) .

I also just got off the phone to ARB Brighton, and the lightest rated shackle they have is something around 4.5 tonnes. He was most interested in the issue ...

Offline jetcrew

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2014, 01:23:51 PM »
I have started another thread in general Tech so most of you guys in the game can give specific advice regarding shackles and loads ect .

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Offline Footy Shorts Shane

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2014, 01:35:02 PM »

This sounds A LOT LIKE the thread we had a while ago where there was talk of some enterprising coppers here in SE QLD who thought they could book car owners for having unroadworthy vehicles whilst they are up on trailers or in workshops etc. many people paid the fines, only a few fought them and got the tickets torn up.

it's called using the rules and not following the rules..........

Did that actually happen? I did hear a lot about it, but have never found a single person that was fined. This is why I had interest in this thread. If people are being fined for these issues, then that is so wrong.

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Offline Green rv

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2014, 01:43:52 PM »
this was just emailed to me from queensland transport

and yes i am still going to use my rated shackle
while putting this post on a fella came in and told me his mate just got pinned in redcliffe qld for $600.00 but could not remember the finer details of the infringement (something to do with the hitch is all he could remember)

MYTH – CHANGES TO REQUIREMENTS FOR SHACKLES USED WHEN TOWING A TRAILER
 
For response to Customer Enquiries regarding this matter. There has been no change!
 
Recently, information has been circulating on social media about changes that require the

i still cant believe this shackle fitted on the chain lol

Ads
shackles used when towing a trailer to be rated as well as enforcement of this requirement
in the Gympie area.
 
Vehicle Standards can advise that under the current legislation, while the safety chains
that are used to connect a trailer to a towing vehicle are required to comply with Australian
Standard AS 4177.4 Caravan and light trailer towing components, there is no legal
requirement for shackles to comply with a particular Australian Standard.
 
However, in the interest of road safety, the Department of Transport and Main Roads strongly
recommends that vehicle operators use shackles that are either certified to AS 2741-2002
Shackles or are identifiable as having a suitable design for the trailer and towing vehicle
combination.
 
These requirements are not new and have been consistent across most States and Territories
for many years.
 
TMR has:
•   responded to the media about this
•   put out social media about it
•   worked with the TMR Call Centre to provide scripting for staff to advise customers
appropriately
•   
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Offline Jenko67

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2014, 01:48:01 PM »
Thanks Green RV, i have been saying this on posts in Facebook..it has created a lot of confusion.... After reading all the forums and posts I was second guessing myself....

Glad it has been sorted....

Offline Dexter_1

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2014, 01:49:47 PM »
I was informed by Cub Campers when I picked my new Cub Daintree LE about 10 weeks ago of this very issue. I therefore assumed that this was correct and that rated shackles are required now and I gather are being enforce in some jurisdictions.  I have since done a search on the web and found many pages confirming the requirements for RATED shackles.
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Offline jetcrew

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2014, 02:09:33 PM »
Thats a real shame .... >:D >:D

I was actually hoping that this would begin to drive some change in the industry targeted at the right end of it all..import and manufacturers.

Oh well , still a worthwhile thread as for less than $5 I know where to find rated shackles.

Typical Australia, make half a law and just hope that people will comply with it.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Offline gordo350

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2014, 02:13:22 PM »
I see a business opportunity coming up. what can we use all these un stamped shackles for ?
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Offline firefox

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2014, 03:20:14 PM »
Actually jump onto their facebook page and have a look. They are being very clear..

https://www.facebook.com/TMRQld?fref=nf

It's as we have all said. THERE IS NO Legislation that anyone can find or they have or has changed that says shackles are required..
HOWEVER......

(Direct copy from their facebook site)
"Shackles that are used do not have to meet any particular Australian Standard, but we strongly recommend you use shackles that meet the Australian Standard AS2741-2002 Shackles or are identifiable as having a suitable design for the trailer and towing vehicle combination."

They must be identifiable.. Suitable design..

I have no idea on whether people getting fined is true or not..

But the local (HUGE) caravan shop had people transport in NSW talk with them about it.. I doubt they would make that up, and i doubt they would spend $$ putting new shackles on.

In all to be honest i think this is a great thing. It educates people of the problem and it's a very simple fix.. I've seen way to many trailers out there with terrible setups that are dangerous.. Not that hard to get it right..


EDIT:
And there offical post/response from TMR..

Department of Transport and Main Roads (Queensland) David, as your D shackles are unmarked, we cannot give you any advice on their rating or capabilities. That is why we recommend that you use D shackles that are marked, so you can determine if they are suitable for your trailer.
Like · 13 minutes ago
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Offline weeds

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2014, 03:27:22 PM »
i reckon a 1T rated shackle is about the biggest any body will be able to fit.........the pin size on a 2Ter wont go through most chains on CT or caravans

Offline Ratbag

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2014, 04:11:37 PM »
Double posting from Jet's other thread:

Then there's this one:

http://www.bunnings.com.au/romak-8mm-galvanised-d-shackle_p2260234

0.75T rated

$3.62 each ... I might even buy a couple of extras.

It weighs 82 grams. My existing galvanised (un-rated) D-shackles weigh 94.39 grams. Guess which is likely to be stronger



[EDIT]

Here is a comparison of the Bunnings offerings:

http://www.bunnings.com.au/compare?products=2260235,2260233,2260236,2260234,

[end edit]


Actually jump onto their facebook page and have a look. They are being very clear..

https://www.facebook.com/TMRQld?fref=nf

It's as we have all said. THERE IS NO Legislation that anyone can find or they have or has changed that says shackles are required..
HOWEVER......

(Direct copy from their facebook site)
"Shackles that are used do not have to meet any particular Australian Standard, but we strongly recommend you use shackles that meet the Australian Standard AS2741-2002 Shackles or are identifiable as having a suitable design for the trailer and towing vehicle combination."

They must be identifiable.. Suitable design..

I have no idea on whether people getting fined is true or not..

But the local (HUGE) caravan shop had people transport in NSW talk with them about it.. I doubt they would make that up, and i doubt they would spend $$ putting new shackles on.

In all to be honest i think this is a great thing. It educates people of the problem and it's a very simple fix.. I've seen way to many trailers out there with terrible setups that are dangerous.. Not that hard to get it right..


EDIT:
And there offical post/response from TMR..

Department of Transport and Main Roads (Queensland) David, as your D shackles are unmarked, we cannot give you any advice on their rating or capabilities. That is why we recommend that you use D shackles that are marked, so you can determine if they are suitable for your trailer.
Like · 13 minutes ago


I totally agree with you, FF. Education is never a bad thing, regardless of the subject.

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2014, 04:15:55 PM »
OK, i went to Gympie today and it appears that..... yep, cops are checking trailers for rated shackles. I was asked if i'd "got done" by the cops when I asked for the said rated shackles.

So, regardless of the tech side of it etc., no rated shackle and ya get a ticket it would appear.

Now, the trailer place I got mine from, said it was only for 2010 and later builds. My box trailer, was bought brand new by my Dad in 1966, so should fall just outside on that, but its got a rated shackle now, just to save me the stress of doing my nut and getting arrested.... again. (Its been a while now)

At the end of it all, it only takes one person to be booked or even given a warning and social media will do the rest from there.  ;D
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 04:35:02 PM by Jeepers Creepers »
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Offline GUEY

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2014, 04:55:02 PM »
Some useless info regarding chains and shackles.
This is my chain. Stamped on every link and hoop through chain link and hoop is welded to frame.


And shackles 2t 13mm S rated.


I have been doing some interior design work and manufacture with a caravan manufacturer for a while.
Now during a semi- drunk conversation the topic of chains came up.
He had been going for certification with the Queensland caravaning governing body, ( can't remember what they are called) and I think RVMMA.
From memory to get certification, stamped chains are mandatory. The fixture of the chains must be done in the correct manner aswell.
So any caravan carrying the RVMMA ( I think that's the letters) should have no issues on this side.
If they aren't they could be in breach.
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Offline Symon

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2014, 07:05:13 PM »
It weighs 82 grams. My existing galvanised (un-rated) D-shackles weigh 94.39 grams. Guess which is likely to be stronger

The rated one.  If you think the heavier one is stronger you would be wrong.
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Offline Jenko67

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2014, 07:11:25 PM »
Some useless info regarding chains and shackles.
This is my chain. Stamped on every link and hoop through chain link and hoop is welded to frame.


And shackles 2t 13mm S rated.


I have been doing some interior design work and manufacture with a caravan manufacturer for a while.
Now during a semi- drunk conversation the topic of chains came up.
He had been going for certification with the Queensland caravaning governing body, ( can't remember what they are called) and I think RVMMA.
From memory to get certification, stamped chains are mandatory. The fixture of the chains must be done in the correct manner aswell.
So any caravan carrying the RVMMA ( I think that's the letters) should have no issues on this side.
If they aren't they could be in breach.

yes, rated chains are mandatory... but not shackles, seems an anomaly, oh well, i have checked mine on my coromal pop top and they aren't rated. i have been towing for many many years and never had an issue, bought 3 new campers/vans over 5 years and they didn't have rated shackles.

Offline Ratbag

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2014, 07:34:06 PM »
The rated one.  If you think the heavier one is stronger you would be wrong.

And if you think that it is, purely on the basis of being "rated", you would also be wrong.

However, that is not what I said. What I said was: "Guess which is likely to be stronger" {emphasis added - RB}.

There is an essential presumption which may, or may not, be valid that all other things are equal. They rarely are. However, as my original D-shackles were made by ROMAK, and the new rated ones are also made by ROMAK, it is a fair assumption that they might (please note that I have said "might", not "will") be using the same metallurgy as they were set up to use for previous manufacturing. This assumption is also reasonable because in order to make something out of essentially the same material that is both smaller and lighter and is also substantially (please note that I have said "substantially", not "marginally", nor "a bit") stronger, it needs to be radically altered in some way. Galvanised steel is pretty much the same strength regardless, unless one starts looking at exotic and usually very expensive materials. These materials generally contain substantially different metallurgy, most of which will also dispense with the need for galvanising ... Or they require special manufacturing techniques, such as shot peening or chemical hardening, or whatever to achieve the desired characteristics.

However, I do not pretend to be any kind of expert in these things, I just happen to know a little about chemical and physical processes, and mechanical devices.

IOW, I already knew that my statement has the possibility of being wrong, but that it was unlikely to be wrong by the required 15% or greater difference in material strength or other necessary characteristics.

Perhaps I am not wishing to go into this sort of tedious qualification of what I say with each and every word I might write on an Internet forum.
In a court case, yes, if it is warranted and central to the matter before a court; otherwise, no.

I try to be helpful when and where I can, wherever that might be.
Sometimes I will be wrong, and welcome correction when I am.
There is not the slightest intention on my part to be or become argumentative about this, or anything else here.
If it becomes apparent to me that this is part and parcel of interactions on this site, then I will not frequent this site.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it's been a long week.

Offline D4D

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Re: Any truth in this?
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2014, 07:38:20 PM »
Perhaps I am not wishing to go into this sort of tedious qualification of what I say with each and every word I might write on an Internet forum.

You could have fooled me ::)
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