Author Topic: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!  (Read 42777 times)

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Offline D4D

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2013, 07:07:19 AM »
Not just 4wding, everything...

x2 such is life in a capitalist society...
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Offline gclan

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2013, 07:24:37 AM »
The secret is to figure out a way to pretty much travel the outback as a job somehow...  :cheers:

Carlisle
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Offline Black Diamond

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2013, 07:26:27 AM »
Yep it all seems to be going up except wages.
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Offline gclan

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2013, 08:12:13 AM »
We have two 4wds, and I have to admit, both have been put to very good use.

The 4wding bug gets us out on the tracks as often as possible(usually once or twice a month), and we do several camping trips every year, including one major trip of around 6 weeks(big for us when we've got high school aged kids).

We have a standing appointment with our mechanic the day we get back from any trip, and since both of our 4wds are Land Rovers, we've always known how expensive this hobby can be  :'( :'( :'(

The seemingly continual, exorbitant expense of repairing the 4wds is a small price to pay in the long run though when, as many of you have already said, it gets you out exploring this wonderful Country with family and friends, creating and sharing memories.

I live for any chance to get out in the bush, and have no qualms at all about spending my husband's money on the trucks, because it's a hobby we can all do together as a family.
Besides, when we're together in the 4wd(with the windows up because you can't hear each other shout in the Defender with them down), it gives me a chance to talk to my DH... and he has to listen  >:D


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Offline Beachman

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2013, 08:32:01 AM »
I have been asking this exact same question myself of late due to the cost of not only our camping gear, but the cost of going away.

$36 000   What I paid for my 4WD
$14 000   What I paid for my camper
$  2 400   Fridges
$  2 000   Dual batteries/ solar/ cable/plugs etc
$  5 000   4WD accessories
$  1 000   Random camping gear

We recently priced camping a week at Moreton Island and between the barge, beach & camping permits and enough fuel for the week, that came in at about $850. Just for the privilege to spend a week on the sand. A nice unit down the Gold Coast 20m from the beach is only $900 for the week!!

Then when we return home I spend at least a whole day cleaning the camper and car.

Yes I do love it when we are away, but sometimes its feels like it’s losing some of its appeal.

Offline Bird

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2013, 09:00:22 AM »
x2 such is life in a capitalist society...
agree.. it just snowballs... people want more pay, things need to get more expensive to keep shareholders happy
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Offline DannyG

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2013, 09:02:19 AM »
I decided quite a while ago now that instead of 'upgrading' (down grading in my mind) to a newer 4wd I would keep the 4wd I have and just keep spending any money on it that it needs as things wear out.

It is not a daily driver, it is a tool for getting out and enjoying life. It is old but tough. It has no electronics, it is simple like its owner, yet comfortable enough to do big trips. It now has over 300000 kays on it and in that time it has had a swivel bearing kit, a new clutch, gearbox 5th gear upgraded, it blew an intercooler hose off (self inflicted), last week I shouted it a new cranking battery and besides the usual servicing it hasn't really cost me a lot of unexpected money. Id like to see a modern 4wd with the same kays and life this Patrol has had be able to get to this stage in its life with less than $1500 spent on mechanical repairs ;D (I have spent far more money on mods etc than I have on repairs.

I have also decided that I won't do big mud running days any more because we all know that will add to the cost of repairs ;)

So for us while I admit as the kays and age goes on our Patrol it is going to require more mechanical repairs, I am happy to keep that up to it so we can continue to out there and enjoy life. And also it is not so much what is it costing, it is more about lifestyle and giving the kids memories, socialising with great people and keeping my liver honest. You can't put a price on that :)
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Offline Bird

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2013, 09:03:26 AM »
I have been asking this exact same question myself of late due to the cost of not only our camping gear, but the cost of going away.

$36 000   What I paid for my 4WD
$14 000   What I paid for my camper
$  2 400   Fridges
$  2 000   Dual batteries/ solar/ cable/plugs etc
$  5 000   4WD accessories
$  1 000   Random camping gear

We recently priced camping a week at Moreton Island and between the barge, beach & camping permits and enough fuel for the week, that came in at about $850. Just for the privilege to spend a week on the sand. A nice unit down the Gold Coast 20m from the beach is only $900 for the week!!

Then when we return home I spend at least a whole day cleaning the camper and car.

Yes I do love it when we are away, but sometimes its feels like it’s losing some of its appeal.
mate of mine is saying the samething.. flog the 2yr old Prado n 2yr old trailer, buy a nice statesman, leather, V8 etc and caravan park/motel it instead.. and get out of debt while at it.
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Offline chester ver2.0

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2013, 09:39:23 AM »
Not just 4wding, everything...

just a starter, how much is rego and insurance these days for what you get back...

how much are good quality tyres in a 285?? 350-500ea... Yes I did say quality - not Linglongfuk's.

I think compared to other states i have lived in VIC rego is one of the cheapest and has some of the best roads
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Offline Bird

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2013, 09:58:59 AM »
Quote from: chester ver2.0
I think compared to other states i have lived in VIC rego is one of the cheapest and has some of the best roads
... bloke in my team paid his suby forrester rego yesterday $712
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Offline Dion

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2013, 10:27:52 AM »
We recently priced camping a week at Moreton Island and between the barge, beach & camping permits and enough fuel for the week, that came in at about $850. Just for the privilege to spend a week on the sand. A nice unit down the Gold Coast 20m from the beach is only $900 for the week!!

Then when we return home I spend at least a whole day cleaning the camper and car.

Yes I do love it when we are away, but sometimes its feels like it’s losing some of its appeal.

True but if all you are doing is want to stay by the seaside then why would you trek all the way to Moreton?
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Offline Metters

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2013, 11:30:33 AM »
The last time that I worked in the auto industry was as a service adviser in a Toyota dealership in 1985.  Things were just as expensive back then as they are today.  A major service on a Cruiser cost around $430 and that was doing it properly over a 4 to 41/2 half hour period.  The cost usually increased as the car got older and we started finding things like rusted wheel bearings.   A gearbox overhaul on a well worn Cruiser could easily exceed $2000.  I remember a $2000 bill for a loose harmonic balancer on a 60 series diesel that had damaged the crankshaft. 

Mechanics in those days were earning a little over $300 a week as were countless other people in other jobs.  That did not go far with bills like that. 

We had plenty of EFI cars like Crowns, Supras etc but the electronics were not a problem.  I can't remember ever having to fix any of it.  When I bought my 03 5LE engine Hilux seven years ago, I rang the dealer that I used to work for and spoke to the workshop supervisor about possible problems with any of the electronics.  He was an apprentice working under me all those years ago and is still there.  He said the only problems they have are with the electronic accelerator pedals and only after they have been submerged in water so it looks like all the modern electronics that many people seemed to be terrified of are still as reliable as can be.

We talk about the cost of modifying cars on top of buying them.  There are tracks a couple of ks from my home that I would have no hope of driving over in my car.  At the same time though, my wife and I have just returned from an Outback trip that included Dalhousie Springs, Mt Dare, the old Ghan railway line, the Sandy Blight Junction road and the Gunbarrel Highway  Our stock standard Hilux complete with its 7 year old 205 x16 LT tyres completed the trip with easy without a worry in the world.  That is not the only parts of the Outback that it has been into.  It has also done its share of driving in the VHC and many other areas.

The point is don't spend money on modifications unless you absolutely need them.  If you want to drive over an impossible track then you will need them but they are not necesary to see the country.  Companies like Toyota and Nissan have been selling 4wds to the people of the Outback since the 1960s.  If the cars were not suitable in standard form, they would have been flooded with complaints and/or warranty claims and would have fixed any problems decades ago. 

Offline DannyG

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2013, 11:34:42 AM »
I modify my 4wd because I want to, not because I have too. I don't HAVE to have 40psi boost and 600hp but I WANT it lol ;D
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Offline chester ver2.0

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2013, 12:53:56 PM »
... bloke in my team paid his suby forrester rego yesterday $712

Yep and if your in NSW add a pink slip and compulsory 3rd party to that
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Offline BigJules

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2013, 01:05:27 PM »
I sold my CT and can't find one I want and am now in the mind as to whether I even want one.
Happy to hire one if and when I need it. Let someone else own it and store it and mod it.


A good quality camper will cost you less than hiring, and give you the option to go whenever, wherever and for as long as you like. I hired last Xmas and again at Easter, and I doubt it will cost me as much as that to own my camper for 5 years. Yes, one needs to have the money to put into it, or the ability to service a loan but as long as the camper you choose holds its value it is a low cost hobby.

4wding, how often do I mis-type it $wding. I have found it very expensive to be silly, play in the mud, rocks etc, but I feel like my Cruiser is such an important component of my life I don't regret what it costs. I could spend less for sure, but I really feel like I would have less, do less, be less myself. My wife certainly doesn't share this view, every conversation about (lack of) money starts with "do you know how much money you spend on fuel..." but it's not like I wouldn't spend money of fuel with another vehicle, though it would likely be less.

Like campers, choose wisely, buy well and look after it and hopefully it won't end badly.
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Offline Ben.Archer

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2013, 05:02:37 PM »
The secret is to figure out a way to pretty much travel the outback as a job somehow...  :cheers:

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Offline Mallory Black

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2013, 06:00:41 PM »
I just keep it simple and basic so that automatically keeps the cost down.

PS you can't drive a statesman to the places we like to go.

And yeah beachman that moreton is bloody expensive, try straddie
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Offline Turbojohn

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2013, 06:18:02 PM »
I drive an old car (gq patrol), fix, service and do all my own mods (turbo intercooled 28psi, twin locked on 35s) because I enjoy it. I also take comfort in knowing that there is minimal technology to fail and if I break down I know enough about the car to overcome most problems. You don't need the latest and greatest equipment to get out and enjoy yourself. Get out there with what you can comfortably afford which makes it more enjoyable as you're not worrying about how much this is costing. Buy a tool kit and service manual and learn how to do some of your own servicing and repairs and see how much money you can save by not having to pay others.  :cheers:

Offline Paul (SA)

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2013, 07:00:53 PM »
The secret is to figure out a way to pretty much travel the outback as a job somehow...  :cheers:

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Offline muzza01

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2013, 07:19:46 PM »
Lots of different views here on the subject and I can see both sides of the fence.
I have had some great trips up the Cape over the last 30 years. Most of those trips were in old Cruzas.
40s, 45s, 47s 55s, a 2 stroke Zook to name a few. Very basic foodstuff, basic swag and a tarp. The old tracks ( if you could call them that), that were horrendously hard on the vehicles. Fuel consumption and power were pretty bad. The old petrol and diesel motors had a fair amount of torque but absolutely no power. I don't remember the vehicles being uncomfortable or hard to drive but by today's standards they were. No aircon, no power steering and oil chewers. The travelling was slow, very slow.  Breakdowns happened, but we could fix them. i know i couldnt operate on most modern cars like I could in the old days.  The vehicles would get hung up and bogged often. We couldn't afford a winch electric PTO or manual winch but we were patient and wise with our driving. We only had a snatch strap and shovel. Made a windlass once out of branches and rope on a recovery once.

Our ice supply would last about five days for a two week trip. Cold beer was a luxury but replaced by goonies of warm port. We would go fishing, shooting and crabbing all day with a litre of water and a couple of oranges in your pocket. I don't remember being hungry, we did eate a lot of fish, crabs, Crays and oysters. I used to chuckle at the old four ex add years ago when the bushies joked about being sick of seafood and will kill for a steak.

We used kerosine lanterns for lighting and played cards most nights for entertainment. Cooking was all done over wood fires, bread was made from damper.
Bathing was done at twilight in the ocean with a close watch out for crocs but they were few and far between those days.

Once every 4 days or so we would drive about an hour back to a cold freshwater creek to (cool down some Berra in the river) restock on fresh water and have a good bath. We used old beer kegs in those days to store our fresh water.

I remember a graduating to tents (expensive back then) I also remember how the old petrol bush freezer gave us more options for food and drinks. ( we were spoilt). I also remember camping with the tucker box freezer and generator. Wow, that was a big change, now we could take bread and have a few cold beers. I still have the old battle scarred tucker box, it still works but looks very secondhand.

About 15 years ago I decided it was time to catch up with technology, we bought a 1988 Diesel Troopy. 2 x 90 litre fuel tanks. The power was awesome, 75 kwatts,  now we could actually get to 100kmh on the bitumen and it had aircon. It was a major step up for technology for us.

I have always been sceptical of modern electronics in 4wds. For that reason, when we got rid of. The old Troopy, I narrowed my search down to either a 4.2 Pootrol or 80s, 105s Cruza. I only wanted a live axle front, and basic diesel (1hz) engine. I didnt want a 100s Cruza, No offence to owners of IFS vehicles but I like to stick with what I know.
We bought a 105 stock as a rock. Once again a major step forward in technology for us but really, buying a 2003 Cruza in 2009 was hardly keeping up with the Joneses.

Driving on coils, having a winch, and putting on other fruit made it more comfortable for us. Yes, I know power in the 1HZ is low but going from a 2H Cruza with the aerodynamics of a Besser brick to the 105 1HZ wagon was a big step in additional power.

About 5 years ago we bought a 250w solar panel, 95 litre 12 v fidge and making a home made OZ pig made more advancements once again. Now we pack luxuries like shredded cheese for pizzas, fancy herbs, dips and all sorts. Cryovaccing meat helped a lot too.

Then comes the CT with quick setup, 4 burner stove, 100 litre water tank with a sink/kitchen area. Chemical toilet. You know what I am saying.

We love our 4wding to great camping spots but now, I am a little older and wiser and don't have to prove how competent a 4wder I am by going on extreme tracks anymore. Maybe I am just getting old but I try to look after what I own these days. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of battle scars on the Cruza but I am a lot more careful and wiser with my driving these days.

I know for Southerners, traveling through Cape York is an exciting adventure, but to be honest, the extreme pioneering that we did many years ago was very different. To be honest, the OTT and others are like a 4 lane highway in comparison to what they were 30 years ago. Once again, no offence to fellow Swaggers.

I am no expert, but IMO, and once again no offence to Swaggers, with some decent and real 4WD experience, decent tyres and a couple inches of lift, any 4WD will do the OTT and subsidiary tracks without any difficulty whatsoever. Yeah having a winch is helpful but not mandatory. I know I prefer Cruzas and Patrols but that is because those were the vehicles that could capably accomplish these tracks many years ago. The poor old Landrovers were capable back then but if you needed to get back to Cooktown to get parts you would only get parts for the Patrols or Cruzas as Cooktown was a very small town with limited options.

I have very fond memories of those trips, I cannot compare them to trips with the modern technology. Don't get me wrong, I love travelling with cold beer and all the luxurious food we take now but we wouldn't see anyone for the entire 2 weeks, now everyone travels up there because the tracks are so good. It is getting really hard to camp up the Cape without neighbours.

I often cast an envious glance at the new Patrols, 200s and 76s Cruzas with all of the power and the fruit. I still wouldn't know what to do if there was a problem with the engine on one of these things but as I Sid before, we don't drive to the extreme areas that we used to. I think for some people, having a 4WD is a statues symbol. We have all seen them decked out with every available bolt on ARB piece of fruit available. Thousands of dollars spent on lifts, bullbars, winches, turbos, lockas, everything. Have a Close look at some of these vehicles and their paintwork is immaculate, the winch cable is perfectly spooled on as it has never been used. Even the bar work is polished. I have never really understood why some people have this setup. Once again, no offence.

Anyway, short story long, I loved the good old days but now at my age, I am somewhat happy with the way technology has changed things.
I am sure plenty will agree and disagree but that is my 2 cents worth (actually probably about$2.00 worth by the time I post this)
Muz.
 

Offline Nomad

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2013, 07:39:51 PM »
A good quality camper will cost you less than hiring, and give you the option to go whenever, wherever and for as long as you like. I hired last Xmas and again at Easter, and I doubt it will cost me as much as that to own my camper for 5 years. Yes, one needs to have the money to put into it, or the ability to service a loan but as long as the camper you choose holds its value it is a low cost hobby.

It's not the cost / investment factor, and I agree they are nothing like owning a boat, especially something like Jeepers, its the storing it in the garage, the extra weight behind the tug all of that stuff that has put me off a bit.....but not out lol   8) I will buy another I just don't know when or what yet. Do you reckon they still hold there value? I think the import market is going to only further erode secondhand values in the long run as the quality gap minimises.

JUst a question, and please don't think it smart arse, how long did you go between campers? I am going on 12 months or so now.

Cheers Nomad.

Offline BigJules

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2013, 07:43:20 PM »
We were without a camper for nearly 18 months and hated it. Missed out, lost contact with great friends and generally didn't enjoy ourselves as we had when we had a camper. That was why we hired, we knew how much we enjoyed using a camper.

Still did trips and went camping but after the ease of a camper, swags and tents weren't cutting it for is.


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Offline McGirr

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2013, 07:46:54 PM »
Lots of different views here on the subject and I can see both sides of the fence.
I have had some great trips up the Cape over the last 30 years. Most of those trips were in old Cruzas.
40s, 45s, 47s 55s, a 2 stroke Zook to name a few. Very basic foodstuff, basic swag and a tarp. The old tracks ( if you could call them that), that were horrendously hard on the vehicles. Fuel consumption and power were pretty bad. The old petrol and diesel motors had a fair amount of torque but absolutely no power. I don't remember the vehicles being uncomfortable or hard to drive but by today's standards they were. No aircon, no power steering and oil chewers. The travelling was slow, very slow.  Breakdowns happened, but we could fix them. i know i couldnt operate on most modern cars like I could in the old days.  The vehicles would get hung up and bogged often. We couldn't afford a winch electric PTO or manual winch but we were patient and wise with our driving. We only had a snatch strap and shovel. Made a windlass once out of branches and rope on a recovery once.

Our ice supply would last about five days for a two week trip. Cold beer was a luxury but replaced by goonies of warm port. We would go fishing, shooting and crabbing all day with a litre of water and a couple of oranges in your pocket. I don't remember being hungry, we did eate a lot of fish, crabs, Crays and oysters. I used to chuckle at the old four ex add years ago when the bushies joked about being sick of seafood and will kill for a steak.

We used kerosine lanterns for lighting and played cards most nights for entertainment. Cooking was all done over wood fires, bread was made from damper.
Bathing was done at twilight in the ocean with a close watch out for crocs but they were few and far between those days.

Once every 4 days or so we would drive about an hour back to a cold freshwater creek to (cool down some Berra in the river) restock on fresh water and have a good bath. We used old beer kegs in those days to store our fresh water.

I remember a graduating to tents (expensive back then) I also remember how the old petrol bush freezer gave us more options for food and drinks. ( we were spoilt). I also remember camping with the tucker box freezer and generator. Wow, that was a big change, now we could take bread and have a few cold beers. I still have the old battle scarred tucker box, it still works but looks very secondhand.

About 15 years ago I decided it was time to catch up with technology, we bought a 1988 Diesel Troopy. 2 x 90 litre fuel tanks. The power was awesome, 75 kwatts,  now we could actually get to 100kmh on the bitumen and it had aircon. It was a major step up for technology for us.

I have always been sceptical of modern electronics in 4wds. For that reason, when we got rid of. The old Troopy, I narrowed my search down to either a 4.2 Pootrol or 80s, 105s Cruza. I only wanted a live axle front, and basic diesel (1hz) engine. I didnt want a 100s Cruza, No offence to owners of IFS vehicles but I like to stick with what I know.
We bought a 105 stock as a rock. Once again a major step forward in technology for us but really, buying a 2003 Cruza in 2009 was hardly keeping up with the Joneses.

Driving on coils, having a winch, and putting on other fruit made it more comfortable for us. Yes, I know power in the 1HZ is low but going from a 2H Cruza with the aerodynamics of a Besser brick to the 105 1HZ wagon was a big step in additional power.

About 5 years ago we bought a 250w solar panel, 95 litre 12 v fidge and making a home made OZ pig made more advancements once again. Now we pack luxuries like shredded cheese for pizzas, fancy herbs, dips and all sorts. Cryovaccing meat helped a lot too.

Then comes the CT with quick setup, 4 burner stove, 100 litre water tank with a sink/kitchen area. Chemical toilet. You know what I am saying.

We love our 4wding to great camping spots but now, I am a little older and wiser and don't have to prove how competent a 4wder I am by going on extreme tracks anymore. Maybe I am just getting old but I try to look after what I own these days. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of battle scars on the Cruza but I am a lot more careful and wiser with my driving these days.

I know for Southerners, traveling through Cape York is an exciting adventure, but to be honest, the extreme pioneering that we did many years ago was very different. To be honest, the OTT and others are like a 4 lane highway in comparison to what they were 30 years ago. Once again, no offence to fellow Swaggers.

I am no expert, but IMO, and once again no offence to Swaggers, with some decent and real 4WD experience, decent tyres and a couple inches of lift, any 4WD will do the OTT and subsidiary tracks without any difficulty whatsoever. Yeah having a winch is helpful but not mandatory. I know I prefer Cruzas and Patrols but that is because those were the vehicles that could capably accomplish these tracks many years ago. The poor old Landrovers were capable back then but if you needed to get back to Cooktown to get parts you would only get parts for the Patrols or Cruzas as Cooktown was a very small town with limited options.

I have very fond memories of those trips, I cannot compare them to trips with the modern technology. Don't get me wrong, I love travelling with cold beer and all the luxurious food we take now but we wouldn't see anyone for the entire 2 weeks, now everyone travels up there because the tracks are so good. It is getting really hard to camp up the Cape without neighbours.

I often cast an envious glance at the new Patrols, 200s and 76s Cruzas with all of the power and the fruit. I still wouldn't know what to do if there was a problem with the engine on one of these things but as I Sid before, we don't drive to the extreme areas that we used to. I think for some people, having a 4WD is a statues symbol. We have all seen them decked out with every available bolt on ARB piece of fruit available. Thousands of dollars spent on lifts, bullbars, winches, turbos, lockas, everything. Have a Close look at some of these vehicles and their paintwork is immaculate, the winch cable is perfectly spooled on as it has never been used. Even the bar work is polished. I have never really understood why some people have this setup. Once again, no offence.

Anyway, short story long, I loved the good old days but now at my age, I am somewhat happy with the way technology has changed things.
I am sure plenty will agree and disagree but that is my 2 cents worth (actually probably about$2.00 worth by the time I post this)
Muz.

Well put Muzza.  :cup:

Mark
Living the dream working our way around Australia.

Ernabella SA, Warburton WA, Mt Barnett Roadhouse in the Kimberley, Peppimenarti NT, Ramingining NT, Gapuwiyak NT, Gunbalanya NT, Bidyadanga WA, Ali Curung NT, Tjuntjuntjara WA. 18 places

https://www.facebook.com/Working-and-Traveling-Australia

Offline Black Diamond

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2013, 08:09:11 PM »
Great response mate well said.
BD
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Offline Nomad

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Re: Is 4wd getting too expensive !!
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2013, 08:15:44 PM »
We were without a camper for nearly 18 months and hated it. Missed out, lost contact with great friends and generally didn't enjoy ourselves as we had when we had a camper. That was why we hired, we knew how much we enjoyed using a camper.

Still did trips and went camping but after the ease of a camper, swags and tents weren't cutting it for is.


Julian
Quote

My chinese POS was never easy lol. But because none of our friends had campers we always ended up taking all the crap for them to use for the weekend or week or whatever. If I camp with friends now its not like I am expected to take all the crap.

I guess I am loving basic camping at the moment, which is fine but will go full circle again at some point.

 :cheers: