Local country market bans dogs on leash - interested in your thoughts

[jclures]

Correction......markets are for women......

Or for them to drag us poor suffering husbands along to.

[GeoffA]

Or for them to drag us poor suffering husbands along to.

100% correct, as usual, John.....

[dazzler]

Hey all, can I suggest that if there is a need to have a new thread created where swaggers can provide views on local councils and government organisations, please do so.

But this thread IS about local councils enacted laws.

Good robust discussion so far.

[scarps]

Correction......markets are for women......

You need to find a new market to go to.  The one's I attend have tools, gardening, hardware, automotive, camping, 4WD'ing, wine, local food, oh and pet stalls. Over time, I reckon I've spent more than the mrs.
She prefers shopping centres that I hate with a passion. Definitely can't take dogs there, but I often see mongrels hanging around.

[scarps]

But this thread IS about local councils enacted laws.

Good robust discussion so far.

Actually the council aren't the bad guys in this instance, they are in actual fact trying to help me. 
The current council law states that I don't even have to have my dog on a leash in this area, seems I've been too tuff on my dog.
It's the market organisers that have made this decision.

And yes, good discussion so far.

[GeoffA]

You need to find a new market to go to.....

No I don't.....

[Tjupurula]

Now I know why people were looking at me the other day at the Derby Markets, it was not because I was the only black fella there, it was because I could not stop scratching myself.
Tjupurula

[D4D]

At least you weren't licking yourself...

[Mrs smith]

Actually the council aren't the bad guys in this instance, they are in actual fact trying to help me. 

It's the market organisers that have made this decision.

And yes, good discussion so far.

You may find this decision has come about due to the market organizers
public liability insurance. 
For what it's worth we are a 3 dog family aswell as stall holders at a local
lions market and I would never take our dogs to the market, I've see it all
over the years.

[scarps]

Thnx Mrs Smith, I think your on the money.
Btw, I'd never take my dog to a Lions market........

[jclures]

I am with you Geoff, I have been to most markets up here  and all I ever see is vetiables being sold often more expensive than my local store, pot plants and plants, an assorted rubbish, often brought of ebay. And I never want to take a dog as well.

[Bobsan]

As a stall holder at markets for the past 6 years, a dog on a leash is a real problem. I have had the experience of a dog running under my tables on a leash, the owner trying to retrieve the dog while I'm holding on for dear life to prevent everything from going arse up.  In my case the table had native plants on it  if damaged who pays for them, as they would be worthless to me. Just another side to the topic.
Bobsan

[Kit_e_kat9]

Owning a dog and liking the markets ... Nope ... Leave the pup at home.  for me, it's not worth the hassle and the dog doesn't really like it anyway ... she'd rather be chasing a ball than getting pushed around or trod on by complete strangers who don't notice she's there ... and then there are the people that freak out just seeing her ... 

I understand them being there if they are being sold or given away though.

The 3 markets I've frequented (in the past) were the Chandler ones ... lots and lots of people ... but mostly a mixed flea and goods market with vegies, the Riverside Markets in town which is fancy handmade overpriced goods and the ones in the Kmart carpark in Logan Central ... mostly a second hand flea market ...

It's something to do if you have don't have a dog ...

Kit_e

[scott oz]

Hey don't blame insurnce companies. You'll find at the bottom if this is "someone" who's made a decision that the so call "duty of care" means they shouldn't allow dogs.

Once they do that it gathers a life of its own. With noone prepared to say what a load of "crap"

[Kit_e_kat9]

Hey don't blame insurnce companies. You'll find at the bottom if this is "someone" who's made a decision that the so call "duty of care" means they shouldn't allow dogs.

Once they do that it gathers a life of its own. With noone prepared to say what a load of "crap"

Perhaps with the No Dog policy, it makes their insurance cheaper?  If I don't insure things "away from home" (like the dog eg) it makes my insurance cheaper too.   

Kit_e

[scott oz]

Perhaps with the No Dog policy, it makes their insurance cheaper?  If I don't insure things "away from home" (like the dog eg) it makes my insurance cheaper too.   

Kit_e

Usually having a dog makes home insurance cheaper.  At the bottom of this will be some faceless person claiming its a duty of care issue and blame insurance Co

[scarps]

Thnx Kit e,
definitely not a good idea to take any dog to a flea market:-)

In term of insurance being cheaper, you'd have to read the supplementary PDS.........

Pooch Disclosure Statement

[Kit_e_kat9]

PDS ... Poo Discovered Somewhere.

Kit_e

[GregS]

Hey don't blame insurnce companies. You'll find at the bottom if this is "someone" who's made a decision that the so call "duty of care" means they shouldn't allow dogs.

Once they do that it gathers a life of its own. With noone prepared to say what a load of "crap"

A different perspective...If you or your club were the organiser of one of these markets somewhere and had to have your own public liability insurance policy to operate the markets and your insurer wrote to you and said no dogs at your markets and if you were still to allow dogs and someone got bitten/injured then your public liability insurance is null and void, and also as the insurance policy will be null and void if an incident such as this were to happen and as you/your club "have a duty of care" to provide a safe environment, then you/your club "could" be held personally responsible for compensation to the victim (this will depend on the laws in each state of course)....
Now, if under the law you/your club "could" be held personally responsible and you/your club had to pay out of your back pocket if such a claim were made, what would you do?

I know what I would do!

Just putting a different perspective on it thats all.....Yep it sucks that this is the way we have to think now, but insurance companies will do anything to get out of a claim and solicitors will make a claim against anyone who they think can payout for their client.

Greg

[Tjupurula]

All this has made me think of the policy we have in Mulan...if a dog bites someone, a couple of us men will rope the dog, take it away, and shoot it, as we will not have a dangerous dog in the community.  I have had to enforce this rule with two of my own dogs, and I did it without hesitation.  I know some people do not like that thought, but we are extremely remote, and cannot afford a dog attack under any circumstances.  The main ancestral dreaking here in Mulan is a Dingo dreaming, we will always care for our animals, but never put up with them biting, especially as many dogs here are trained for hunting and cattle work.
I do 100% agree that no dogs should be around food, and where there are a lot of people, as too many dogs feel the need to be superior, and suddenly there could be a vicious dog fight where people are trying to relax and enjoy themselves.
Regards
Tjupurula

[scott oz]

OK if your insurance policy has an exclusion about dogs then the policy is not void you just have no cover for that type of incident.

This doesn't equate to the club being liable because the incident occurs. Nor for that matter does it mean you/club have so called "breached your duty of care".

Your duty of care may simply be to advise that all dogs must be leashed at all times and that parents and must watch all children etc etc.

Your duty of care is not automatically to ban dogs.

As I said "Duty of care" much abused and miss understood principal

   

[Mrs smith]

With insurance, it could be as easy as there provider giving them an option to
keep the premium  at a similar cost or maybe having to increasing there
premium with the continued  inclusion of dogs to the site. This may be due to
claims the insurer may have had elsewhere, some markets will not let you have
a stall without proof you have your own public liability.

[Nomad]

OK if your insurance policy has an exclusion about dogs then the policy is not void you just have no cover for that type of incident.

This doesn't equate to the club being liable because the incident occurs. Nor for that matter does it mean you/club have so called "breached your duty of care".

Your duty of care may simply be to advise that all dogs must be leashed at all times and that parents and must watch all children etc etc.

Your duty of care is not automatically to ban dogs.

As I said "Duty of care" much abused and miss understood principal

Whether this is correct or not, and IMHO it isn't. The simple fact is that if the club is having the event on land under their control, by ownership, lease, licence, community grant etc, then that club would be targeted by potential claimants (legal representatives) if an injury etc occurs. This on its own is a simple enough financial reason for the club to enforce such a policy as the club would not put itself in a position whereby it may be subject to expensive legal proceedings that may effect it's viability.

There are many people who will actively seek to abuse situations like these for personal financial gain.

I had an instance, where a woman, who slipped off a chair managed to sue both the owner of the property and the tenant of the property jointly and severally for $180K. It did not matter that the owner of the property did not supply the chair, or even the tiles on the floor of the property, he still had a judgement against him of $90k.

The tenant had public liability insurance the owner did not ( against advice) it probably cost him $140K all up to defend himself and a **** load of angst and time.

Research showed that this woman was a professional at this and the number of court cases that she had won (edit) was astounding.

I know this sounds a bit extreme but it happens all the time and if a simple country club was held up to this type of action it would probably not survive unless it had deep pockets or substantial benefactors.

I understand what you say about "Duty of Care" its usually the first thing someone with no legal knowledge throws at a situation.

I also think that the committee members who have to, unfortunately, make a decision on this type of thing have a "Duty of Care" to the club, and this is the safest and most effective.

Cheers Nomad.

[scarps]

Appreciate all of your feedback, you have crystalized for me that just like the the Lord of the Rings - where The time of the Elves is over!. The time of the dogs at market is over.

Here's the local update, but need to put this in a bit of perspective
Our local market for many years has very much been a local country market where everyone came together once a month to say hi and catch up over a coffee and a local bargain, buy fresh fruit and vegies, maybe even buy the Mrs a bunch of flowers.  Tools, hardware, plants etc you name it, good chance someone was selling it.  Much more about the community getting together than the commercial enterprise.  A lot of people bought their dogs. Several instances of people riding up on their horses.

I have been in communication with both the local council and the Scout Group and even they admit that it's a change that they've been resisting for some time, but if you read my initial post we're fast becoming an outer suburb of Melbourne and the size and numbers of people attending this event has changed and grown. There's been a minority of people complain and a small number of instances where kids became scared, older people step in dog do do!. Question is was it fresh or from the day before.  For many years this event had a real community feel about it, but much more today it's become just like every other market you have been referring to.

The interesting thing here is that in my questioning, that they didn't expect, the land on which the market is held is curently zoned as a leash free zone, so at least the market attendees were being mature enough to all have their dogs on leads and in harnesses.

The market organiser intimated that council would be in attendance next time and handing out fines.  The Council said they couldn't do that under the current zoning, it would be up to the market organiser to police their own area under their lease agreement.
I advised both that previously as a proud and supportive community member, I have been happy to step in and help with any difficult situation as I didn't want visitors to speak badly of our town.

We've all agreed that what's been changed can't be undone.

I thanked them for their professional responses and wished them all the best in the future endeavours.  I also suggested that they may need to change the event name from 'Olde Time market'.

Thanks to one Swggr I've been reminded that another local market only 25kms away and in the next council area, still has a monthly market where I can take my dog, buy my fresh food, maybe buy the Mrs a bunch of flowers and meet new friends. 

Everyone's happy.

[Barry G]

Scraps, when you head over 'my' way shoot me a PM and we might both get to postin the MmyswaggerSpotted thread.