Author Topic: 4WD with seperate chassis or monocoque - is one better/safer than the other?  (Read 20044 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline elkay

  • Tent User
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Thanked: 6 times
I have been looking to buy a 4WD (no particular brand or model decided upon as yet) and have found there are two types of construction -  separate chassis or monocoque. I am interested to learn, is one better, stronger, safer or just preferred over the other? Have heard that some dual cab utes have issues when towing under arduous conditions with the chassis bending and breaking.  Your experience/advice and knowledge would be very much appreciated.


Offline BigJules

  • Administrator
  • Hard Top Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 7786
  • Thanked: 56 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Just Cruisin' - I wish...
    • I'm so much cooler online :D
Strewth, what a clanger of a question  :police: .

Like this thread says, every 4wd has its faults. It is not possible to state categorically, for all models that one is better or safer.

Monocoque reduced weight and improved handling, but meant independant all round, which is great in some instances but less than ideal in others. Ladder chassis is tough as nails.
Julian
Land Cruiser V8 + Trackabout Safari SV Extenda
MySwag Gallery, Photobucket
Sydney Agent for www.trackabout.com.au
Mallee Gear - Tough as nails

Offline dazzler

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 5103
  • Thanked: 40 times
  • Power Power Power
There is no real 'better' or 'safer' option it really comes down to the design by the manufacturer.

When the current model pajero came out in 2000ish it had a semi monocoque design as opposed to most 4wds having a full ladder chassis.  There was much doom and gloom that they would crack all over off road however that did not seem to be a problem though there were reports of early models popping or cracking windscreens when going over severe crossovers. 

It is easier to build safety cells and crumple zones into monocoque chassis as the whole lot can crumple irrespective of the chassis.

The main issue for utilities and cracking the rear of the chassis is that everything rear of the cab is unsupported whereas wagons have the body (where it mounts to the rear of the chassis) as additional support.  The cracking seems to be a result of harsh conditions and/or overloading.  Add in a camper trailer and some woop de doos and the thing can only flex so much.

I wouldn't sweat it.  Whatever suits YOU best.

good luck.
My alternative to cheap import trailers;

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=36094.msg578367#msg578367


Offline Metters

  • Soft Floor Camper User
  • ****
  • Posts: 342
  • Thanked: 37 times
elkay

You can get good safe cars with both methods of construction.  It all comes down to how it is designed.  There are separate chassis utes today with the maximum possible safety rating  and no shortage of mono cars with the same rating. 

All makes of separate chassis utes regardless of whether they are dual, extra or single cabs have been known to bend chassis.  You will find no end of examples in Google.   Have a close look at this dvd on utube and you will start to see why. 
Land Rover Discovery Destroys Tow Truck (short)
  If you push down the rear end of a chassis, it will pivot on the rear axle and try and lift the front end.  In the case of this Ford truck, the driver is towing with a cable attached to the top of the hoist.  This has pulled the rear end of the chassis so far down that the front wheels have lifted of the ground.  Few if any chassis have been designed to withstand that and this one is no exception.  It has bent at the pivot point which is the front hanger on the rear springs.

The problems associated with all the Hilux, Triton, Navara size utes is much the same i.e the rear goes down and the front goes up.  This will not happen though if the ute is correctly loaded and that is where the problems lie.  Many people will say their car was a couple of hundred kilos under GVM but the chassis still bent so it is too weak.  One particular late model dual cab ute that I am familiar with has a carrying capacity of 930 kgs.  If you are going to take it up to its maximum weight then every factory designed load bearing point must be fully utilised.  You would start at the front seats and put two people of around 120 kg each in them.  Then put a couple more at around 100 kg each behind them with a fifth person weighing about 60 kg in between them.  You now have 500 kg in the cabin.  Filling the fuel tank with diesel will add about another 70 kg.  This leaves 360 kg to go into the little tub body at the back.  With the heaviest items placed as far forward as possible, the car will now be at GVM and should be sitting low but level with enough suspension travel left at each end to suit highway and around town driving.  That is the way the factory intended it to be under maximum weight.  The factory will also tell you their maximum advertised carrying and towing capacities are for good conditions only and should be reduced for off road conditions.

If you try loading it with say only two people of about 100 kgs each in the front seats and try putting the remaining 730 kg in the tub and fuel tank, the rear end will be sitting down on the bump rubbers.  That is not what the factory had in mind.

To solve this problem you could place a few hundred kilos in a small box trailer.  The car would now be evenly loaded and way under its maximum carrying and towing capacity.  That will not suit many people so they turn to heavier after market rear springs and worse still, air bags between the axle and chassis.  Alarm bells are now ringing for the chassis.   

Heavier rear springs and excessive rear end loads can easily result in cracked chassis and diff housings as well as damage to wheel bearings and wheel studs.  Check the damaged in these photos.  http://www.mtdare.com.au/index.php?option=com_expose&Itemid=3  Use the little red arrow below the pictures to go to the third page and click on "Vehicle &  Trailer Breakdowns".  Unless those cars have been trying to set new speed records on Outback roads, you can bet those broken chassis and diff housings etc. have been caused by overloading.

The air bag is the real killer though.  It is not a linear spring.  It gets harder as it compresses and can become very hard as it nears maximum compression.  With too much weight behind the rear axle, you will need a fair bit of pressure in the bags.  They then lift a huge amount of weight off the springs and become the new pivot point.  As the back goes down, the chassis rocks on top of the bags and tries to lift the front.  This becomes far worse with a camper trailer and a spare wheel or two on the back.  The tow ball on these type of utes is usually around 1200 mm behind the rear axle.  That is a hell of a long lever to be pushing down behind an air bag.  All that weight behind the axle is stratic weight only.  When the wheels drop into a depression in the road, it comes down with a force far greater than its stationary weight.  Try holding a brick in one hand and drop it a few inches into the other and you will see what I mean.  It is not hard to see why so many chassis bend under these circmstances.

The problem of bending chassis above the rear axle is not confined to separate chassis cars.  I have seen it happen to a few early model Holden Commodore sedans.  Once again it was not the fault of the car.  The cars had a coil spring rear suspension.  This meant all the heavy body sections designed to support the rear end weight were located above the axle.   There was not much in the way of heavy reinforcement back near the rear bumper like prevoius leaf spring models.  The factory designed tow bar bolted onto the rear of the body but had a long brace that extended forward and up into the reinforced area above the axle.  Some of the cheaper non genuine bars did not have the brace.  If you used one of those, you ran the risk of bending the rear end of the body.  The weight on the tow ball combined with whatever was in the boot, forced the body down behind the rear axle just like it does in a separate chassis ute.  The unbraced body would now bend down above the axle causing ripples in the rear quarter panels extending down from the lower corners of the back window to the top of the wheel arches.

If you use any car the way it was designed and be prepared to tow instead of carry if you have too much gear to go into the back, you won't have any problems. 

Offline elkay

  • Tent User
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Thanked: 6 times
BigJules,
"Monocoque reduced weight and improved handling, but meant independant all round, which is great in some instances but less than ideal in others."
can you give me a couple of examples of this so I can better understand it?
Cheers Lesley

Offline elkay

  • Tent User
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Thanked: 6 times
Dazzler
Re the monocoque & safety cells & crumple zones, if the body crumples does the chassis too or does it remain rigid and just bend/break under extreme conditions?
thanks Lesley

Offline elkay

  • Tent User
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Thanked: 6 times
Metters, thank you for taking the time to put together your explanation in clear simple English that I can understand and breaking it down in terms of weight distribution of each particular item and in what area made it easier to get a handle on it.

It may seem strange for me to wonder about things like the chassis but the info came up with conversations about the construction designs when looking at 4WD so I needed to ask the question so I could come to grips with the differences and whether or not it mattered in decision making.

Correct me if I am wrong but what I understand from what you have written is that it is all about balance and evenly distributing the load throughout the vehicle and/or trailer so  as to avoid putting too much stress in one area like the tub on a ute or back of a wagon

I assume that the same goes for the wagon, in that evenly distributing the weight, be it people, fuel, water or luggage etc will make for a safer ride as long as one drives to the road/weather conditions and the intended use of the vehicle.

I have had a look at the video and the vehicle breakdowns and can see what the undue stresses have caused. Thanks for taking the time and effort to add the video and link to make it easier for me to understand, very much appreciated. Cheers Lesley


Offline Squalo

  • "Two Wheels Good"
  • Hard Floor Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Thanked: 12 times
  • Gender: Male
Hi Lesley

One of the main reasons for a ladder chassis is that it can take the loads that solid axles deliver. Solid axle just means that the whole axle/diff assembly is contained within a single major component that spans the width between wheels. It is either leaf or coil sprung (it's been all coils for many years now) and is the strongest way of building drive systems for 4wds. The compromise is a rougher ride compared to independent suspension systems, and the handling is more 'truck-like', although it is all relative - modern coil suspension systems with solid/live axles such as on the GU Patrol are quite civilised.

A monocoque body almost always has independent suspension, which is more road biased, which makes sense as most 4wds are used on-road for 98% of their lives.

Independent is generally not as good offroad as solid/live axles, for a few reasons. The main reason is articulation, and it is articulation that helps keep all the wheels on the ground, and wheels on the ground means traction. Lift a wheel and there goes 25% of your traction, more if it's a front wheel because front wheels don't have limited slip diffs. You lose ALL front drive if you lift a front wheel, which usually means you stop. You can often remedy this by backing up and hitting that bit of track harder, momentum is your friend, but you increase the chances of damaging the vehicle and the track by doing this.

Another reason is clearance. When you need all the clearance under the vehicle that you can get, solid axle wins every time. Why? When one wheel goes up on a hump or obstacle, so does the diff pumpkin. Hit the same line with independent suspension, that wheel goes up just like the solid axle set-up, but the diff/underbody doesn't. This can be bad news in rocky terrain as you start striking hard rock with bits of the car that don't like that sort of thing.

And another reason is complexity - independent suspension simply has more parts than solid/live axles, which means more potential points of failure.

Having said all that, independent suspension in 4wds is constantly evolving and improving. The components are getting bigger and stronger, and traction control is gradually closing the gap to - or even exceeding - the abilities of solid/live axles. Lift a wheel in a Discovery 4, and the TC quickly adjusts settings and sends the power to the wheels still on the ground. But then we get the catch-22 - more complexity, more potential failure points.

Keep reading and absorbing info. 4x4 Australia is a good read, go to your local library and look for such things as dual-cab ute comparisons, they often have heaps of great info on how the different systems available compare.
2007 Jimboomba Maddison Staircase
1995 GQ DX Patrol TD42

Offline jpak

  • Swag User
  • **
  • Posts: 91
  • Gender: Male
Squalo, thanks for your input, as I am not very mechanically/technically minded your post adds another dimension for me to consider.
Explanations in simple terms makes it very easy to come to grips with the different chassis construction types and uses, whys & wherefores. Cheers Lesley


Offline GeeTee

  • Hard Floor Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • GT Campers premium off-road trailers and Toyota Hilux Expedition conversions
jpak, as it is very difficult to condense 120 years of motor vehicle chassis and suspension engineering into a web forum, is there any particular reason you are asking? You are in the market to buy a vehicle so you may become overwhelmed by information; what do you need the vehicle to do?

PS: the simple answer to your question is No

« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 07:24:20 AM by GeeTee »

GT Campers: Off-road touring trailer or Toyota Hilux Expedition
Purpose-designed and built off-road touring vehicles. Innovation not imitation!
Find us on Facebook

Offline Redback

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Gender: Male
The Land Rover Discovey 3 and 4  and Range Rovers are both mono and ladder chassis, you can't get much stronger or safer and like Audi Q7 and others similar, these are the safest and best handling 4WDs on the road today.

BUT

Apart from the Disco 3 or 4, these are not particually good in serious off road conditions.

If you want good off road, strong and saftey on road, my pick would be in no particular order.

Land Rover Discovery 4 monocoque and ladder chassis IFS/IRS Airbag suspension

Land Cruiser 200 series ladder chassis IFS coils

Mitsubishi Pajero monocoque IFS/IRS coils

Land Cruiser Prado ladder chassis IFS coils

Nissan Patrol ladder chassis live axles coils

There are a couple I haven't mentioned, mainly because they have leaf springs.

Baz.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 07:46:28 AM by Redback »
Cheers Baz.

2011 Discovery 4 TDV6
1990 Perentie FFR  
Lightweight Camper.
1973 Kawasaki H2a 750 
1979 BMW R80/7
1983 BMW R100RT ex Police
2006 BMW R1200GS
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fool

Offline Finners

  • Soft Floor Camper User
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Sampling perfect tracks - racetrack or 4WD!
Having owned samples of both - my $0.02 worth... monocoque cars can be significantly lighter (and thus better highway performance/economy), but off-road their torsional rigidity (or lack thereof) can be heard all around you (as the body creaks) in any slow articulation work. Also mono can 'amplify' road noise when changing to more aggressive tread patterns (think resonance chamber - like guitar body). Also after-market parts options can be more limited (ladder frame easier to bolt stuff to).

That said - all manufacturers are making latest mono models very rigid.
2012 Complete Campsite Fraser hard floor | 2012 Ford Ranger dual cab XLT 3.2 manual + too many mods - including nut behind wheel ;p

Offline elkay

  • Tent User
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Thanked: 6 times
The answer to your question Gee Tee is a long story which started with looking at campers and then finding that no matter which camper we purchased we would have to change tow vehicle.  In talking with my husband (jpak) monocoque/seperate chassis came up and although he tried to explain it to me, I did not completely understand his explanation.  I need to know so an informed decision about the purchase of appropriate vehicle can be made by the both of us.  When I do not understand I usually question things until I do. So the need to understand the differences/ramifications/pros & cons of monocoque/sep chassis goes right to the heart of things.

The explanations from My Swaggers has been brilliant and opened up a whole lot of other questions.

Hard off road is not a priority, more the ability to sustain long periods on dirt, corrugated roads, hauling a camper (yet to decide on which one) vehicle must be safe and strong.  Having seen ute bend chassis at the tub just needed to know why. Whether this would happen to a wagon etc. We have done quite a bit of research on both campers and tow vehicles and will continue in one way or other until the decisions are made.  The opening question of this post is all about the research and my quest for knowledge.

Having asked the first question has led to other questions being asked/answered and has unearthed information not yet thought about, such as the noise, spare parts, operation of independent suspension and a whole range of things which thanks to everyone who has contributed has helped enormously.  Cheers Lesley


Offline Beachman

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1571
  • Thanked: 130 times
  • Gender: Male
Interesting question and here is my take. My Cruiser has a separate chassis, so here is what I think would happen in a head on crash

My 3 Tonne Cruiser having a head on with a small sedan at 60km – I would presume the sedan would crumble (as designed) and my cruiser would sustain a fair bit of damage to the front as the sedan crumbling helped lessen my impact, but to an extent it bulldozed the smaller car out the way. Occupants sore and sorry and may or may not be going to hospital.

My 3Tonne Cruiser having a head with another 3 tonne cruiser at 60km  - we would both sustain a lot of damage seeing the chassis wasn’t designed to crumble. Occupants in both cars would be going to hospital. 


3 Tonne Pajero with a monocoque chassis having a head on with a small sedan at 60km – I would presume both would crumble (as designed). Occupants sore and sorry and may or may not be going to hospital.

3 Tonne Pajero with a monocoque chassis  having a head on with another 3 Tonne Pajero with a monocoque chassis 60km  - we would both sustain a lot of damage seeing the chassis we designed to crumble on both severely lessing in the impact. Occupants sore and sorry and may or may not be going to hospital.

I’m no road expert engineer, but I presume a separate chassis would be safer for the occupants of that car in a low speed crash, but more dangerous for the occupants in a high speed crash. But a Monocoque is safer in a high speed crash. But any car involved in a crash at 100km/hr is going to cause a lot of damage.


Offline BigJules

  • Administrator
  • Hard Top Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 7786
  • Thanked: 56 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Just Cruisin' - I wish...
    • I'm so much cooler online :D
So now you've got all the explanations, what 4wd do you like?

It would be hard to pick incorrectly from the crop of modern 4wds available.
Julian
Land Cruiser V8 + Trackabout Safari SV Extenda
MySwag Gallery, Photobucket
Sydney Agent for www.trackabout.com.au
Mallee Gear - Tough as nails

Offline dazzler

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 5103
  • Thanked: 40 times
  • Power Power Power
4WD with seperate chassis or monocoque - is one better/safer than the other?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2012, 11:35:36 AM »
This has been a great read. Thanks.
My alternative to cheap import trailers;

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=36094.msg578367#msg578367


Offline GeeTee

  • Hard Floor Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • GT Campers premium off-road trailers and Toyota Hilux Expedition conversions
..now let's put a trailer on the back and see what works well!

GT Campers: Off-road touring trailer or Toyota Hilux Expedition
Purpose-designed and built off-road touring vehicles. Innovation not imitation!
Find us on Facebook

Offline elkay

  • Tent User
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Thanked: 6 times
Gee Tee what does happen when you put a trailer on the back?  How does that affect the whole thing?  Now that's another question needing answering.

I must say that the information I have received since asking the question has been absolutely astounding and so very  very helpful. The examples given with weight distribution and accident scenarios  and all the other explanations go way beyond what I could have anticipated in answers

Long way to go before we decide on which vehicle as so many more questions have arisen but rest assured that when it does happen there will be pics!!!


Offline Metters

  • Soft Floor Camper User
  • ****
  • Posts: 342
  • Thanked: 37 times
Correct me if I am wrong but what I understand from what you have written is that it is all about balance and evenly distributing the load throughout the vehicle and/or trailer so  as to avoid putting too much stress in one area like the tub on a ute or back of a wagon


That is always important in any car but trying to get everything exactly right as you use the car on a day to day basis is just about impossible and impracticle.  Ute owners will occassionally drive home from places like Bunnings on a weekend with so much stuff in the back that the rear end dragging on the ground.  That is not usually a major problem.  They don't do it everyday and they are usually travelling a short distance home on smooth roads.  The real problem is when they load it beyond the limit and take off on holidays that involve thousands of ks off unsealed and sometimes very rough roads.  No amount of after market springs, shocks and air bags can compensate for the stress they will put on an over loaded chassis in those conditions.

Read through these three links before you buy any car or trailer.  Most of the dual cab utes have a towing capacity of 3 tons or more.  They will safely tow that amount but not in all conditions and not everything regardeless of shape or size that happens to weigh that much.  They don't have a good safety record with long heavy caravans.  Camper trailers should be a breeze but many have too much tow ball weight which is not necessary.  You will see why in these links.

http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/pdf/vehicle_dynamics_complete.pdf

http://rvsupertramp.com.au/Portals/0/galleries/articles/caravan_dynamics_cw.pdf

http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/why_wheels_fall_off.html

Offline achjimmy

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 3255
  • Thanked: 166 times
  • Gender: Male
 I tow a 2 tonne van with 2-220kg ball weight behind the Pajero with no problems. Never had excessive rear tyre wear either. My way of thinking is the monocoque is more rigid than a ladder chasis and the way the towbar mounts is very secure. Just think aero planes and race cars both are required to be very strong and rigid, I haven't seen any ladder chassis planes or race cars for many decades?

As Jules  said get what suits you best, I wouldnt hesitate to have either type again in a 4wd towing or not.
Here for a good time, not a long time!

Jim

Offline Squalo

  • "Two Wheels Good"
  • Hard Floor Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Thanked: 12 times
  • Gender: Male
Hi Jim

A ladder chassis vehicle like a Patrol is actually a monocoque body on a ladder chassis. It is far more rigid than just a monococque (of course the Patrol body is not as heavily constructed as a Pajero body, but it doesn't have to be).

Aircraft need strength and light weight, the weight is far less of an issue with 4wds (and trucks and buses and anything else that uses a ladder chassis for maximum strength and rigidity).
2007 Jimboomba Maddison Staircase
1995 GQ DX Patrol TD42

Offline achjimmy

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 3255
  • Thanked: 166 times
  • Gender: Male
I realise a body bolted to a ladder chassis can strengthen it, but again rigitdy is going to be stronger welded. That's why spot welded bodies on sedans used as race cars used to be stich welded up before integral roll cages become the norm to stiffen up the body.

Truck chassis do not necessarily have rigitdy or need it. Many truck chassis can't be welded because there manufactured from a steel that has the ability to "spring"

The closet thing to a ladder chasis on an aeroplane is the wing, the spars act like chassis rails. The wing is incredibly strong but hugely flexiable not rigid.
Here for a good time, not a long time!

Jim

Offline BigJules

  • Administrator
  • Hard Top Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 7786
  • Thanked: 56 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Just Cruisin' - I wish...
    • I'm so much cooler online :D
It would be hard to pick incorrectly from the crop of modern 4wds available.

Quoting myself, does anyone disagree with this? Other than personal preferences, is there really any duds in the new vehicle market?
Julian
Land Cruiser V8 + Trackabout Safari SV Extenda
MySwag Gallery, Photobucket
Sydney Agent for www.trackabout.com.au
Mallee Gear - Tough as nails

Offline achjimmy

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 3255
  • Thanked: 166 times
  • Gender: Male

Nope like above I would buy what suited me and my purpose.

Changing hats

If you like the far superior ride and strength of a Monocoque platform  :laugh: I am thinking of selling the silver Paj.???
Here for a good time, not a long time!

Jim

Offline Redback

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Gender: Male
Quoting myself, does anyone disagree with this? Other than personal preferences, is there really any duds in the new vehicle market?

No, I agree with you Jules, you can't really go wrong with any 4WD these days, all of them have there good and bad points but all of them will do what you want and tow just about anything you want in relative comfort.

Baz.
Cheers Baz.

2011 Discovery 4 TDV6
1990 Perentie FFR  
Lightweight Camper.
1973 Kawasaki H2a 750 
1979 BMW R80/7
1983 BMW R100RT ex Police
2006 BMW R1200GS
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fool