Beware the growing legal monster being fed in the shadows

[prodigyrf]

Can we get in troble looking at the pics of our watery friends    . Or thinking about looking at them . It seem to be getting silly as it goes on & on & on .

Well it's a very good question and why I asked the obvious-
Are we expected to regularly ring up our friendly lawyer to catch up with the latest before we venture out or post incriminating evidence perhaps?

Now owning a regd motor vehicle or holding an appropriate drivers licence, we all know (or should know) our respective legal obligations, no matter when we first obtained our licence. That's because when new Legislation is enacted like seat belts, .05 .08 alchohol limits, red light cameras, towing limits, etc, there's a public info campaign and leaflets sent around with your licence and rego renewal and read it and get up to pace or else. Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

Same with boaties licences and presumably aircraft licences when that 2010 Marine Mammal Legislation comes into force. What? You're a typical 28 yr old that got your first boat licence 11 yrs ago and don't read newspapers or watch the nightly news and you simply threw the blurb in the bin and grumbled about the cost of the new licence? The boat licence Handbook has now grown to nearly 150 pages and you bought a jetski 12 months ago and now you're a $100k or 2 yrs jail waiting to happen, should you get it wrong within 300M of a whale that you've never encountered in that Gulf before. 2 pods of dolphins and a seal on the journey before that but no matter if it's incidental contact and you don't 'interact' with them like when you're surfing over the West Coast with 60 or 70 dolphins.

Aircraft owners, boat owners, PWC owners (jetskis and waverunners), whale watching businesses, etc, all have to know the intricacies of that MM Law the moment it's enacted but there's more. Surfers, kayakers, canoeists,swimmers, scuba divers with or without submersibles and persons on land you'll notice and what exactly should they know? Well just like boaties, etc they're allowed to come across MMs accidentally or incidentally like that seal pup at Bribie Is, but then they must know exactly their legal responsibilities or else! That's the bit that upset some of you when I pointed out some Law could be broken here and rightly so. I didn't make that Law and Regulations remember. Now can you see why the usual suspects want to annually licence everything you do 4WD chums?

OK so I quoted the Law re the seal pup on land but what about a 'person who is in control of a vessel' ie boat or jetski who has incidental contact with a MM. Well after you've established the definition applies to you, you simply look to see if it applies before going through the intricacies of your responsibilities and getting out the tape measure. Well here it is in black and white letter Law-

Part 2—Interaction with marine mammals
Division 1—Vessels
6—Interpretation
In this Division, a reference to a person who is in control of a vessel includes a
reference to a swimmer who is using a submersible or other vessel.
7—Application of Division
This Division only applies in relation to a vessel if the observing of marine mammals
or swimming near marine mammals is the purpose, or 1 of the purposes, for which the
vessel is being used.

You got that? Assuming you weren't deliberately approaching within those prescribed limits for the purpose of observing, the moment you get out the camera or mobile phone to take some pics, which is the most natural reaction, then guess what....?

[McGirr]

I think at the end of the day common sense will prevail. Rules are rules and sometimes they are ridiculous but such is life.

Mark

[Bird]

I think at the end of the day common sense will prevail.

[scott oz]

The problem is Australian’s are very apathetic when it comes to personal freedom. To the point there isn’t a subject you can think of where a lobby group isn’t active in trying to enforce their view on individuals.

Individual’s (Australian’s) don’t seem to care until they run-foul of some rule or regulation.

I don’t care much for whale hunting however if other countries have a different view so be it. And it should be done sustainably. Zealots actively endangering other’s lives in the name of “whale conservation” should be taken to task.

I do admit to being an active supporter of saving the millions of Krill killed every hour to those ravenous whales.

[prodigyrf]

I don't see much common sense prevailing with that $21k total penalty for our happy clapper (and family) for contravening the MM Law on his jetski.

In biz you're required to know every Law and Reg directly applicable to you so that-
Definitions (could that be me) Applicability(does that apply to me and when) Obligations(if it's me and applies how do I have to behave) and Penalty (none of my concern because I've done my homework)- is all second nature and why we get paid to worry a lot while you go home and put your feet up. One morning you've had a gutful and it's time to pass the baton and good luck kids because you're gunna need it. Time to become a boring old fart for Myswaggers eh?
 
Anyway my advice if you're ever formally challenged or questioned about your 'common sense' vs black and white letter Law, is to maintain your right to silence and seek legal representation immediately. Perhaps this fellow who knows intimately all about that-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapunda_Road_Royal_Commission
assuming you can hold your nose long enough or stand contributing a cent to his well-being.
Not quite that sort of common sense eh?

Speaking of common sense or perhaps common knowledge I asked a couple of questions about that regards Southern Right whales. Well they were called Right whales (Northern too) because they were the 'right' whales to hunt in Moby Dick's day being slow moving. Generally they cruise at 4km/hr with a maxm around 10km/hr, whereas faster species have been clocked cruising at 19km/hr for 3-4000km distances. Consequently these Rights were the first to be noticed headed for extinction and the first to begin being protected as far back as 1937, so our oldies were not completely ignorant in such matters as many would have you believe nowadays.

Then I asked why do they seek the cliffs near the Bight? For the same reason they're relaxed and comfortable coming into our noisy Gulfs and Harbours (even 'Mugging' those whale watch boats in Sydney harbour you'll note on their websites). They're not top of the food chain with those cunning, speedy Orcas about, particularly when they're vulnerable in couples mating, or lone females with calves.  That's their trick in seeking out those cliffs with noisy waves crashing on them so the 35knot, cooperative Orcas can't detect them easily, whereas in large pods Southern Rights can defend themselves. So as they become more prolific where else do you think they're beginning to work out where it's noisy and offers them lone safety from their ultimate predators? The same place Sydney ferries and Adelaide watercraft are beginning to run into them with mixed results. That's a growing problem I'd suggest.

[Bird]

[McGirr]

I think its time for someone to go easy on the caffeine and go camping somewhere 

Mark

[prodigyrf]

Ha! Lost. But I see there's another tinfoil in the MSM-
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/olympic_fails_no_fluke/
Check out those comments too 

[rotare]

Not that the kiddies can be held responsible but any adult can and ignorance of the Law is no excuse as we all know, or at least as this fellow discovered while returning to the boat ramp at Victor Harbor when he got excitedly carried away getting too close(300M in his case) to deified, sanctified whales-
http://www.victorharbortimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/whale-of-a-fine/2583142.aspx

I understand his fine was actually $20,000 but reduced by $5000 for that guilty plea but with costs added on, all up around $21k.  However the Court has graciously given him 6yrs to pay it off, since he is a Church Minister (happy clapper) with wife and 2 young kiddies and no doubt a mortgage. Apparently being on a jetski with suction intake and water jet outlet rather than a propellor in the water means you cop nearly 4 times the fine, even if the jetski doesn't actually run into the whales-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-09-06/man-fined-after-hitting-whale-with-boat/2250050
so you work it out.

I remember reading about these two incidents when they were in the paper.  If a whale accidentally comes into your path, it's one thing, but if I remember rightly in both these cases the guy in the boat and the jet ski went out of their way to follow and harass these whales after they found them swimming along and basking.  From memory the guy in the boat was actually observed motoring metres aways from the whale for 30 or so minutes, and continued to follow it in this manner until the enivitable happened and he collided with it.  I think both cases need to be put into perspective, and as I alluded, it's one thing to accidently come across a whale in your travel, it's another thing to decide to follow it from a distance of a few metres.

Not that I agree with these laws, and the penalties seem severe if not extreme.  So much so in fact that last weekend whilst fishing I had a whale surface 80-100m behind my boat whilst we were drift fishing.  The immediate reaction from everyone on board was to move closer to get a better look, but knowing of these two cases and not wanting to chance it, I started the motor headed in the opposite direction at a rate of knots!

[dazzler]

Its really really really simple.

If you see a marine animal that a normal person would think you are not allowed to play with then just look. 

If it comes towards you stop or move away.

OR

Ride, drive, swim, jetski, paddle, sail, run, skip, cartwheel, crawl, slide, slip, dance towards it whatever gets you off so you can see it better.  Either way, you are in control.

Incurring the fine is totally voluntary

[Swaggie]

Ignorance is no self defense don't they say ?... prodigyrf has pointed it out and I'm glad he did...

Why this info i believe should have been started in its own thread,And really if you are out n about and you see d!ckheads hassling seals you know the law is on your side.....

What did the kids learn,more than in a classroom reading about the seal in a book...They gave it, its own space,It certainly doesn't look threatened in anyway and respected its space,they never fed it a Big Mac  (i hope) .....lol
They go back to school and spread the good word.....

Who is ever going to know all the rules and regulations of this Country when every state is so different, if some-one doesn't point them out now and then....Whether you think its right or wrong once its law Good luck on taking on the Government...

Glad the kids had a special moment on there trip ! 

[prodigyrf]

I've been asked to do some digging and you've probably guessed why by now and it gets more interesting. PWCs (jetskis and waverunners) have had a bad rap, having been very noisy 2 strokes initially and mostly in the hands of younguns so special Laws have been introduced for these 'bikies' of the water. Specifically that 300M dist from a whale when your V8, extractors, propellor, rudder and all speedboat only need stay 100M away unless the whale 'shows signs of disturbance' you'll recall.

Now one difference is a PWC must have a 'Ride Smart' sticker on it where it's clearly visible to the operator and you can probably guess why. You get fined for not having it there so these young hoons can't plead ignorance of the main special requirements for their craft. Here's the Qld and SA ones with the Qld reverse shown which is similar to the SA reverse re that penalty reminder.

Notice anything important missing folks?

[DeBe]

Im glad im oldenoughto have been working on a Cray boat back in the mid 70s. When fishing around Neptune Islands I would go ashore & interact with the Seal colonys & take photo graphs of them. But it has its own risks especialy if there is a large bull seal around, you can be chalenged & atacked. In fact my avatar on Grey Nomads is a picture of a Seal pup with the Cray boat in the background at South Neptunes. I gues this is an experience people wont be able to enjoy. Also at Nth Neptunes I would dive with the seals, & they are amazing to see swiming underwater & they are very inquisitive.

[DeLuxHiLux]

Having waded thorugh this quagmire of discussion I have some questions?

What is a PETA head? I know what a PitaBread is. I quite enjoy Pita bread preferably with some Greek seasoned Lamb, Lettuce, Tomato and Tzatiki. I thought PETA stood for People Eating Tasty Animals

None the less, this all seems like fairly extreme. Really, those kids who (stupidly IMHO) took their pics and posted them on Fakebook or MyStalk or whatever, question is what frikkiin harm did they do to a dead whale?? Did they kill it to take that pic? Hardly? Did they make it more dead than it already was?? Not going to bother anwering that. They undertook some "youthful antics" which in reality harmed no one. the whale is still as dead as it was both before and after the picture was taken. Whilst it seems stupid, there was hardly any harm done (or did I miss that part about how Dead whale carcass' need to decompose in a special way. It offends those who would call themselves "activisits" or "greenies" I suppose. that being said, I am offended by many things, yet sadly they are not enshrined in legislation. People who eat Tuna or other smelly fish in small lunch rooms. People who manage to park where there is no markings who manage to turn 3 spots into 2. Yet sadly these cretins get away scot free! where is the justice in the world!!!!!

[prodigyrf]

Well this arvo I finally worked out why those Ride Smart stickers with important summary warnings don't contain a piccy of a whale and perhaps a timely reminder of $100k or 2 yrs jail.

I was specifically interested in updating the penalty for being apprehended on a PWC without that sticker,among other matters so yesterday I rang the appropriate Dept Transport Energy and Infrastructure general no. and you know how that goes- Explain briefly what you want- hold- muzak-shunt a couple of times because not their area of expertise, but finally a bloke in Marine Safety Compliance and although he hasn't had such a request he is quite helpfu and puts me on hold while he checks the computer database- hmm..bit of a puzzler because he can only come up with the Qld one (yes I knew that because that's all I could come up with) hmmm- he'll try X in Prosecutions because he should know... not available but he'll check with him and get back to me and gives me the blokes direct no. just in case. Cheers.

Well one thing you know in biz is everything is in Regulations attached to the overarching Legislation and nowadays it's online like SAs here-
http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/browseRegulations.aspx
I eventually found it but it aint easy but I'm a persistent beggar as you know. If you're a wee bit bored playing kids computer games have a go at grown up games and see if you can find it among that lot, but in any case you might just want to have a flick through some of that alphabet soup to get an idea of the monster growing in there (your State and Canberra too). The cheat sheet by the way, as I discovered later, is on that SA Ride-Smart sticker which every jetski newbie naturally leaps upon and familiarises himself with, before venturing out among all sorts of boats, critters and marine mammals, etc.

So I have a fair idea when I ring that no. back this arvo and have to leave a recorded message and surprise,surprise, not long after I get a call back from a hands-on boating inspector out on the job and yep got it all here- peels off the 2 applicable regs and $160 plus $60 victims of crime levy for both owner and operator, being $440 in all, if they're one and the same. There is a couple of other possible infringements they could invoke but generally don't (don't lip the inspector sonny) We have a good chat and he knows Qld and NSW already have special PWC licensing on top of recreational boat licensing. Might come in here but no, SA hasn't unilaterally intoduced periodic licence renewals as a few thousand were mistakenly informed because that was a computer mistake (but you can guess what's coming with that sort of oops!). We chat about jetskis and he happily relates 95% no probs at all, just a hardcore 5% continually flouting the Law and Community sensitivity Then I raise the impact of Marine Mammal Law and why not a warning on that sticker or even the boat advisory one (not compulsory). Ah that's NPWS territory says he but in his own words- 'You see a marine mammal run a country mile!' That's what he knew only too well about it out there in the field.

So that's why it's not on those Ride Smarts. NPWS craft, introduce and police the Law on marine mammals driven by the landlubber whale worshippers and usual suspects, but no prizes for guessing where you run into them most. Oh they do have a sting in the tail for the odd parent or 4WDriver that doesn't run a country mile quick enough from a special class of MM on the beach, but basically the monster has very different heads and they don't talk to each other. That's not commonsense but a lot of potential common dollars if you didn't ring up the family lawyer before venturing out.

PS: But after a while with all those Laws and Regs hunkered down and running smoothly you're sitting around the office with not much in the intray and the boss is getting nervous about PS cuts, but hang on a minute. Bit of a problem with people towing caravans and campers.. hmm.. what about a special licence for towing and annual inspections? Mightn't be a bad idea to get working on that and then there's those 4WDers. What about a special annual licence and a Drive Smart sticker on their dashes....?  All just common cents really.

[bobnrob]

95% of societies problems are caused by people who think too much!

[Tjupurula]

Hi Prodigyrf
What was the comment in there about people trying to stop rodeos.  The annual rodeo at Halls Creek, and Kununurra, are out biggest social event, and last year I had the honour of being on the judging panel for the barrel race and the buck jumping.  The ringers, stockmen, stockwomen, jackaroos and jillaroos that come for this find this time to show their talents and skills, and they do train really hard for the events.
Who are these people trying to stop these events, which are so damned important on the social calender for many isolated and rural people ?
Regards
Tjupurula

[hairymick]

Hi Prodigyrf
What was the comment in there about people trying to stop rodeos.  The annual rodeo at Halls Creek, and Kununurra, are out biggest social event, and last year I had the honour of being on the judging panel for the barrel race and the buck jumping.  The ringers, stockmen, stockwomen, jackaroos and jillaroos that come for this find this time to show their talents and skills, and they do train really hard for the events.
Who are these people trying to stop these events, which are so damned important on the social calender for many isolated and rural people ?
Regards
Tjupurula

Have a look here my friend and cry.

http://www.peta.org/

These maggots are everywhere and finding others just like themselves and breeding.

Have a look at the background of many in the Greens party.

[hairymick]

A quick Google search found this :-

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/qld/content/2007/s1977224.htm

[hairymick]

Here is PETA's dogma on Rodeos,

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/rodeos.aspx

Fishing :- (Read this one and weep)

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/fishing.aspx

[xcvator]

Here is PETA's dogma on Rodeos,

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/rodeos.aspx

Fishing :- (Read this one and weep)

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/fishing.aspx

Peta is worse than the media "don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story"

[prodigyrf]

Join some dots- 
http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=24249.0
I'm ashamed to say on behalf of a generation that there's a horrible pattern emerging here for our young people and their future.
We're all guilty at some stage of creating the monster everytime we kneejerk over some particular annoyance or pet pecadillo of ours and bleat -
The Gummint orta do sumpink about it!
and that the public circus is only too willing to grow their bureaucratic empire to accommodate.

What have we done? It's a very good question for Myswaggers in particular, given our mutual interest in the wide open spaces and the delights we find there, whether or not some office bureaucrat reckons we should be 30 or 50 or 300 metres away from it as they deem fit from time to time.