Patrol GVM.

[Robin Miller]

You know guys sometimes its worth looking at the problem from the other direction.

Carefully looking at all accesssories , inventing you own , or doing them more effectivily to keep weight down.

There is nothing I can think of to do to my Gu Patrol and comes in under GVM at around 2950kg fully loaded for the hardest long distance trips with  every reasonable function catered for like 250lt of fuel , winch , lockers, better 12v power lighting and so on.

You don't really need things like dual batteries,70lt of water , bullbars dual spare wheel carriers and so on - but you do need improvements
for these functions in many cases and thinking outside the square you can often come up with lightweight alternatives.

[doc evil]

You know guys sometimes its worth looking at the problem from the other direction.

Carefully looking at all accesssories , inventing you own , or doing them more effectivily to keep weight down.

There is nothing I can think of to do to my Gu Patrol and comes in under GVM at around 2950kg fully loaded for the hardest long distance trips with  every reasonable function catered for like 250lt of fuel , winch , lockers, better 12v power lighting and so on.

You don't really need things like dual batteries,70lt of water , bullbars dual spare wheel carriers and so on - but you do need improvements
for these functions in many cases and thinking outside the square you can often come up with lightweight alternatives.

CARP.........
A bullbar has saved me several times.......to say I dont need one .........thems fightn words. I'd still be somewhere 300 odd km from anywhere with bleached bones. A bullbar if you do any sort of remote travel is a necessity.
Likewise water. Having only recently (last week) returned from a week in the pilbara, I was drinking 3-4 liters a day. Add in a safety factor......you do the maths.
2 spares is a minimum out where I play (remote WA), as is duel batteries.

You're fine without all that if you are only sticking to bitumen or tootiling up and down the east coast...........

[GeoffA]

.........
You're fine without all that if you are only sticking to bitumen or tootiling up and down the east coast...........

Not even safe then......one dark night, we hit a stray cow on the Hume Freeway, 50km north of Melbourne.
The bull bar took the brunt. Nobody hurt, and we were able to drive home.
It can happen anywhere....

[Robin Miller]

Sorry guys but when you start going to serious places like when you won't see another car for days then keeping the car from breaking becomes more important.
Less weight , particularly keeping it under GVM is not only safter but likely to lead to less breakdowns better handling, able to stop quicker with better braking and a whole host of other issues, to to mention lack of insurance hassles and simply less fuel used.

Its not about doing nothing its about making better choices, every aspect from front end protection thru lights etc can usually be done better without incurring excessive weight or cost  , for example carrying a second spare is an extra 40-60kg, instead of that you can invest 15kg into good comprehensive tyre tools and repair stuff so that you can repair a dozen tyres and not be stuffed when a
second spare goes down - and your 40kg in front.



 
 

[Bird]

CARP.........
A bullbar has saved me several times.......to say I dont need one .........thems fightn words. I'd still be somewhere 300 odd km from anywhere with bleached bones. A bullbar if you do any sort of remote travel is a necessity.
Likewise water. Having only recently (last week) returned from a week in the pilbara, I was drinking 3-4 liters a day. Add in a safety factor......you do the maths.
2 spares is a minimum out where I play (remote WA), as is duel batteries.

You're fine without all that if you are only sticking to bitumen or tootiling up and down the east coast...........

Its ok, some people are that fixated on "light weight" they remove the plastic cover from cordless drills..... I Shit you not.

[Swannie]

Its ok, some people are that fixated on "light weight" they remove the plastic cover from cordless drills..... I **** you not.

WTF is wrong with people.
Swannie

[D4D]

WTF is wrong with people.

I take it you're a first time Robin reader

[achjimmy]

thru lights etc can usually be done better without incurring excessive weight or cost  , for example carrying a second spare is an extra 40-60kg, instead of that you can invest 15kg into good comprehensive tyre tools and repair stuff so that you can repair a dozen tyres and not be stuffed when a
second spare goes down - and your 40kg in front.

So what do you do when the spare is shredded and ****ed or your radiator is leaking because of no bull bar?

[GeoffA]

So what do you do when the spare is shredded........

Grab one from the back of your mates car??...

[doc evil]

To give you an insight. I did $15k damage to the front of the patrol after belting a roo. Bullbar.....stuffed, vehicle drivable. 300km later was when I saw the next person and the road I was on, is very very lightly travelled.

You save your 40kg, I'd rather cart my 2 spares AND repair kit/tools, and a bit more than I need than die in the desert.
A shop ain't around the corner, nor is emergency assistance. It can be up to 6 hrs away. Think about it.........

A little tip for ya Robin, take an epirb and a sat phone if you travel into the desert as ill prepared as you describe beacuse you'll be calling for help............... 

[kylarama]

So what do you do when the spare is shredded and ****ed or your radiator is leaking because of no bull bar?

Call roadside assist.  Then grab a beer from the 500 litre car fridge you fitted thanks to the weight saving techniques you used

[86gav]

Call roadside assist.  Then grab a beer from the 500 litre car fridge you fitted thanks to the weight saving techniques you used

He's probably carting a home brew keg with him,  save on all that excess glass weight. Lol

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk 2

[chookduck]

I have sent some emails to a popular Australian 4WD magazine that usually has an article on a 4WD vehicle that has undergone the 'usual' add ons.  To my calculations the majority of these vehicles easily exceed the GVM.  I have not received any responses - probably because of advertising by the accessory companies.  As an example of one email:

To the Editor,

I understand the busy schedule and the demands you are obviously under in getting the 'next' great XXXXX magazine out.  However, I did not get any response to my previous email, particularly if my assessment was incorrect.

Maybe you have concerns with my comments and any potential impact regarding advertisers and/or sponsors.  ARB certainly do as they (Branch Manager in XXXX) refuse to supply any weight data for my query and provide a lame excuse of "As there are quite a few variables when installing accessories & modifying motor vehicles it is extremely difficult to quote weights. Bull bars, kits, side rails & rear bars etc. get improved, modified, superseded quite regularly."  For an internationally recognised engineering company that must have their products ADR compliant I find it totally implausible that they do not know the weights of their major components.

However, I still believe there is a positive and educational technical article that could be written in XXXXX to outline the definitions and impacts on kerb weight, Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combination Mass through the addition of various modifications and after market accessories.  Also, your readers could also be informed of the registration, insurance, structural and legal impacts of driving vehicles above specification weights. And finally, what needs to be undertaken in getting an engineering certification to increase GVM to remain legal.

As another example, in the XXXX mag, there is an article that details a custom Toyota FJ Cruiser.

Looking on the Toyota website we see the weight specs for the FJ Cruiser as the following:

    Kerb weight (kg, Toyota has confirmed with me that this does not include fuel) 2000
    Gross Vehicle Mass (kg) 2510
    Gross Combination Mass (kg) 4760
    Gross Trailer weight braked (kg) 2250
    Gross Trailer weight unbraked (kg) 750

Toyota also states that GVM is the total permissible combined weight of the vehicle, including occupants, fuel and cargo.  Thus, for the FJ Cruiser payload would equal GVM minus Kerb Weight (2510-2000kg) which equates to 510kg.

Looking at the modifications done to the FJ in the article (the range of mods being fairly typical for a lot of 4WD owners) the following can be concluded:

    ARB Deluxe winch bar 35kg nett (18kg of OEM gear is taken off the FJ before fitment)
    Rock sliders 30kg
    Rear steel bar 15kg nett
    Warn XD9000 winch 40kg
    Drifta Storage drawers 25kg
    80 ltr Engel fridge 35kg
    ARB Full recovery kit 10kg
    Maxtrax (4kg each) 8kg
    Shovel and hilift jack 15kg
    Full length roof rack (Alloy 25kg, steel 45kg) 25kg
    160 Ah auxiliary battery 25kg
    2 ARB Awnings 20kg

The above list totals 283kg and some of the weights I have erred on the light side, eg roof rack.

Now add the weights of:

    Above modifications 283kg
    159 litres of ULP (0.74 kg/lt) 117kg
    2 people @ 70kg each 140kg

We now have 540 kg, which is already 30kg above the payload for the FJ Cruiser, and we have yet to add water, food, camping gear, clothes, first aid kit, suspension, tools, wheel/tyre upgrades, the sum of other smaller mods like driving lights and wiring, compressors etc and we surpass the payload even more.  Also if any towing is to be done - camper trailer, caravan etc - would need to add the towball down weight to the vehicle kerb weight too.

So, assuming approximately another 100kg for the extras (water alone is 1kg/litre so 50 litres is 50kg), we are at 640kg payload and a GVM of 2640kg, some 130kg over GVM.  Add any towball down weight - say 100kg - we are now 230kg over the GVM.

If a fully laden 4WD tourer, that is over its approved GVM, is involved in an accident, regardless of whose fault it is, what is the legal outcome?

Again, I ask the question - am I off the mark here?

An educational technical article in XXXX can assist people in prioritising their choices for after market products and obtain, if required, appropriate engineering approval and any required structural modifications to have their vehicle ADR approved and compliant.

[Robin Miller]

"Again, I ask the question - am I off the mark here? "

Hardly ChookDuck , that sort of feedback to magazines and also to posts like is they way to go.

Many people genuinely hold different points of view and want real info and asking the harder questions is a step we can take - even a non-reply from the mag tells you something.

Some simply bolt on a heavy accessory genuinely not knowing that it can actually be harmful overall if it, for example, reduces your braking distance at the wrong time.

Keeping within GVM is just one thing we can do to make our cars better - seriously its just common sense.

Along this theme I found a local weighbridge in Dandenong vic that costs nothing to use and this really helps to keep a tab on things.

[Steffo1]

What this really shows up is the fact that you can't buy a genuine 4WD for Oz conditions (Mmm Defender maybe). I'm of the opinion that if I was to spend 80k-100k on a vehicle, I'd want it to perform as advertised rather than having to throw another 10k or so at it!!!
That's why both my vehicles are 90's models.
Just my 2 bobs worth, mind 

[Bird]

I called them today and the weekend

Surprisingly 3 times I called (with differnet suspension combinations) seemed everything I had was not suitable and would be "thrown away"...  I was laughing by the end of the phone call!

They will replace it with Lovells suspension - no quality brand suspension is suitable - even if you fitted Bilstiens, or Koni 90's yesterday King or Dobinson springs...

They also fit the rear tower kits - ATOC ones are "no good" they need to fit something else *shock*, which will raise it to 3495kg.

The cost is $3150 he thinks.

Wish that dodgey dude a certain north sydney 4b store in NSW was using was still around.... sadly he lost his permit for NSW and Victoria.

[chookduck]

Just for completeness, here is the previous email to the one above I sent regarding GVM to the popular 4WD magazine.

To the Editor,

I have always found the articles on Customised vehicles of interest; however, I believe there is one area where more information on the customisation is required - the impact on Kerb and thus Gross Vehicle Mass weights.

As an example in the latest XXXXX magazine I have just received in the mail  there is a detailed article on a Prado.  While the list of after market items is very impressive, and each item taken in isolation is totally appropriate for 4WD use, I wonder what is the new kerb weight of the Prado, and how close to GVM, after modification.

According to your magazine, the GXL manual DT4 Prado has a payload of 660 kgs.  Toyota's web page has the difference between Kerb weight (2320kg) and GVM (2990kg) as 670kgs.

Looking at some of the heavy additional items added to the Prado in question - dingo doza roof top tent (50kg), two 40 lt Engel fridges at 24kg each (48kg), extra spare wheel in the MTZ and MT Lockring (39kg), warn 9000lb winch (40kg), Intimidator 80Ah battery (23kg), hi-lift jack (14kg), ARB Steel Roof Tent Rack (50kg) and twin drawer system (40kg) - this equates to an increase by some 304kg alone.

Now take all the other extra items that substitute OEM gear - five MTZ 285/70/17 tyres and MT Lockring wheels, ARB Deluxe steel winch bar, rear Kaymar twin wheel bar, brown davis undergaurds, heavy duty long travel suspension upgrades, safari snorkel, various LED light bars, side and rear awnings, water tank etc, there is probably a few 100 more kilograms to add.  If any trailer is to be towed then the tow ball down weight would have to be factored in too.

Even without these mods, 150 litres of diesel weighs 135kg, the 65 lt water tank when full is an additional 65 kgs, two people at around 70kg each adds another 140kg.  This alone adds another 340 kgs and we haven't even started to add clothing, food, camping gear etc.

So, the extra stuff at 304kg plus the diesel, water and people at 340 kg totals 644kg.  We are nearly at the 670 kg payload and we have not even added in the unknown weight increase of items that replace OEM gear.  While there may be some small differences in actual weights of equipment, I would assess that this vehicle is over its GVM, particularly when fueled up and ready to commence a long off road trip.

So, unless there has been some engineering assessments done and the vehicle has been checked and approved, one could say that it is illegal to drive, not alone insure as well.  Also, I believe there is a roof loading limit whilst driving.  Does the equipment mounted on the roof rack of this Prado come in under that weight limit?

To laud such vehicles in your magazine without checking weight and engineering impacts implicitly gives approval that overloading such vehicles is OK.

For future magazines, I would recommend that changes to Kerb/Tare and GVM be published in the articles, and if not legal then you should consider whether to publish such articles.

Happy to discuss further, particularly if I aim missing the point somewhere.

[Barry G]

What this really shows up is the fact that you can't buy a genuine 4WD for Oz conditions (Mmm Defender maybe). I'm of the opinion that if I was to spend 80k-100k on a vehicle, I'd want it to perform as advertised rather than having to throw another 10k or so at it!!!
That's why both my vehicles are 90's models.
Just my 2 bobs worth, mind 

And why I wouldn't consider buying a new vehicle - like you, Defender excepted - because newer vehicles are predominantly designed as  made / gravel road tourers in the south east corner, not for remote extended touring.

[chookduck]

And why I wouldn't consider buying a new vehicle - like you, Defender excepted - because newer vehicles are predominantly designed as  made / gravel road tourers in the south east corner, not for remote extended touring.

Or get a dual cab or cab chassis vehicle.  At least their payloads are up around 750-1000 kgs.

[chookduck]

And another email.

Hi,

Just read the artilce in the Feb 2014 issue of Overlander titiled 'Custom Built'.  An excellent article that provided me with a great overview of new vehicle modifications.  I particularly liked the 'GVM Increases' part of the article; however, it would seem that in other areas of the magazine this information is disregarded, e.g. the article 'Cool as Ice' about a modified Landcruiser 200 series.  As spectactular as the vehicle in the article is, was it weighed in touring configuration to ensure it is below its GVM of 3350kg (assuming it's a GXL model).

Your statement in the 'Custom Built' article regarding GVM dropping payload to around 500-600 kg is accurate, with the GXL turbo diesel Landcruiser 200 having 620kgs payload according to the current Toyota website.  Looking at some of the mods incorporated in the 'Cool as Ice' article including:

    ARB premium bar and side bars would be easily over 60 kg
    ARB steel roof rack 45 kg
    ARB 78ltr fridge 27 kg
    An extra spare tyre in the Federal 35" and Dick Cepik wheel 41 kg
    ORS three drawer and fridge slide 63 kg
    Warn 9500 wicnh with steel wire 39 kg
    Optima D27M battery in an Arkpak 26 kg
    65 lt Alloy water tank 10 kg
    Long ranger 170 lt fuel tank 60 kg
    Kaymar rear bar dual wheel carrier approx 40 kg

These known mods total 411 kgs.

Unknown additions would also include all the equipment being carried on the roof rack as per the pictures in the article: maxtrax, large yellow ice esky, recovery gear etc.  Also the nett weight from other mods/additions such as the larger wheel/tyre combination, increased suspension componentry, underneath protection plates, spot lights, led light bar, snorkel, kaymar rear light work lights, etc.

Add 263 litres of diesel (@ 0.8kg/ltr) 210 kg, 65 ltr of water 65 kg and you have another 275 kgs.  So we are now up to 686 kgs of known weight increase and 66 kg above GVM, and we still have to add in the unknown nett weights of the above, plus 2 adults and children, plus camping gear, food, clothes and other touring 'essentials'.  Plus any towball weight for caravan/camper or trailer.

Your 'Custom Built' article explains how to go about getting GVM increased legally. Did you check that this had been done for the Landcruiser 200 in the 'Cool as Ice' article?  If not it should have been.

I realise that you will probably not answer this email, as per the previous two I have sent, as it will most likely impede on advertising for your magazine.

[Bird]

And another email.

why do you think they give a Shit?? it isn't their car.. and putting said Shitbox in the magazine has worked, you bought it...

Result 1 - 0 to the magazine.

[doc evil]

AND are you absolutely certain that the 200 doesn't have a GVM upgrade?.........HOW? You personally know the owner???

Anywho, I might go do a "look at me" in my 4wd, you'd have a coronary.............the thing weighs well over 3.5T





Oh, yes I DO have a GVM upgrade........ 

[mike and tracy davis]

Why would you bother writing to a magazine?? They are in the majority just journalists with 9/10th of bugger all knowledge about what they write about just opinion and hearsay! Save your money on magazine subscriptions and weigh the thing and talk to an engineer.

[chookduck]

why do you think they give a ****?? it isn't their car.. and putting said ****box in the magazine has worked, you bought it...

Result 1 - 0 to the magazine.

Lost, not really.  The subscription was a birthday present so no cost to me.  Just won't renew that's all.  Score 1-0 to me.

[chookduck]

Why would you bother writing to a magazine?? They are in the majority just journalists with 9/10th of bugger all knowledge about what they write about just opinion and hearsay! Save your money on magazine subscriptions and weigh the thing and talk to an engineer.

As above, I'm not paying for the subscription - it was a gift.

Why not write to the mag, we cannot all just sit on our backsides. If no one writes in and agrees/disagrees/comments then they automatically take the high ground.

Sounds like a lot of people out there are probably overloaded.  Hope they don't have an accident, especially with me.