Is getting a driving licence too easy?

[Humbolt]

As far as licensing goes, i think defensive driving courses should be mandatory.
I also am not sure doing 100 hours or so in a log book makes you a capable driver. I have seen people in their 30's, 40's and 50's not having a clue what they are doing in sticky situations. They have probably clocked up thousands of hours.......I also agree quite a few parents only teach their kids the bad habits that they were taught when first getting their licence. Maybe a 'licence' (use the term loosely) from a driving instructor for the parents to be able to teach the child? Eg. Instructor sits in the back for a few lessons observing what the parent is teaching......

I really don't think you can go past education in difficult, real life scenarios. Skid pans, dirt roads, simulators. Pilots spend lots of hours in simulators before they are allowed near aircraft.
Considering the violence in movies and video games these days i am not sure the 'shock tactics' work either.
In short, i still think it is too easy!!

Years ago there used to be a drag strip on the Gold Coast where as long as your car was roadworthy, you could race.
It was sponsored by the police, heck the police had their own drag car. I know insurance is costly these days but the cost of closing the motorway after a fatality is not cheap either.........
My point is that sure, it is illegal to race but if you want it to stop on public roads, why not do it in a relatively safe environment so they can get it out of their system??

[Hairs]

They have to do 100hrs in a log book, one hour with. Driving instructor is equivalent to 3hrs without but that concession is capped to 30hrs and given that 10hrs with a driving instructor would cost you min $600 its prohibitive for families.There is talk about parents fudging the logbook.

Did i read right a couple a weeks ago in the one of the Sunday papers that the RTA is considering reducing the number of hours a L'r has to do because, What for this, Ya going to love it.
Most kids these don't have two parents, so that don't have someone to take them driving or they have two parents that work full time and can't find the time to give their kids practical experience & the cost involved to lower income families is prohibitive for them to pay for lessons.

I noticed in the NRMA's Open Road that if you use one of their driver trainers, it cuts down the hours needed in all conditions to obtain your license. What makes a NRMA driver trainer any better at teaching then any other driver training school?

Hmm, wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that so many are loosing their license(We all have an extra point now in NSW) that the State has became so reliant on motor traffic infringements as income that they need to have more kids getting the licenses to fill the gap.

The point I want to make is that the road conditions are very different these days to what they were in 1963, coupled with the fact that very few 17 year olds could afford a car that went more than 80-90kph flat out, and I think that the way we are assessed as to our ability to drive on the road without being a menace to ourselves and everyone else should change (become more restrictive) to match the changes in traffic.  Too many people seem to think that obtaining a driving licence is a right rather than a privilege

Pipeliner, I agree with you comments, Also, when I first got my license, if I didn't use my blinker at an intersection, when I go home my father was waiting for me, he had already heard what I had been up to.
Cars these day are so sterile compared to the old HQ's and XY's(still remember the first time I drove a Combi at 50mph flat out) that had at lest an inch play in the steering wheel, you knew when you were doing 50 mph.

I think one of the biggest problems is that kids today are taught to pass a test, not drive a car.

A very good point Dave, your spot on.
Dave, as you travel it(Pacific H/Way) as do other here as professional drives and the hours that you spent behind the wheel, some of the things that your seen are truly mind numbing beyond belief that some even have the brain power to wake up of a morning.
I've traveled the Pathetic H/way, sorry I mean the Pacific H/way, regularly(not as a professional, although I drove Taxis for four odd years, as well as hold a MR/R license), for over 25 years between Maclean and Tweed Heads, and I can say the standard of driving is dangerously well below par.

I reckon, get rid of fixed speed cameras and replace them with unmarked H/way patrols like they use to have 25 years ago.
You never knew if the Commodore coming towards you was a copper of not.
Having signs up saying that there is a speed camera ahead must be one of the stupidest things going, apart from someone too stupid to read it and then whinge when they are fined for speeding.

[Bill]

Getting a licence is a lot tougher these days.  Anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't tried to get one recently, and like someone said before, it is also a lot easier to lose your licence than it was in the past.

If we want to make it tougher to get one, sure, but also make it tougher to keep it.  I also vote for people over 40 to do an annual refresher on road rules as many still don't know how to use a roundabout.  People over 60 are to do it 6 monthly, as many don't seem to remember any of the rules.

There should also be a separate classification (and exam) before you can tow a caravan, included in the testing is you need to prove that you can handle a vehicle towing a 3T caravan around at 100km/hr.  What's that? You don't feel safe towing at 100km/hr? No licence for you then!

Also make it mandatory that caravans in convoy must have a minimum of 100m between them, to allow other vehicles to pass safely.  Any closer and sensors are to provide the driver with a 500V shock between the arse cheeks.  

If people leave the minimum 100m between them and the vehicle in front, for safe passing, then why cant they do under the speed limit?
And if they are doing the speed limit then they need not leave the 100m in between them and the vehicle in front, as someone that was passing them would obviously be speeding and that is illegal  
Bill and Morag

[robsjack]

Only a year or so ago I finished putting my son through his 120hrs before he got his licence and I have just started teaching my daughter. I don't agree with the need to do 120hrs and I don't think it makes people better drivers. Apart from all the basic (control the car skills) I have tried to teach them to thing about 'unexpected' situations. Often I will say as they approach a crest of a hill "what if there is traffic backed up where you can't see?" or "What if there's a broken down car/truck around this bend where you can't see?" Trying to build into their driving to prepare for the unexpected.

Three things stand out to me when it comes to good driving and the first is 'experience'. 120hrs is not going to give you the adequate experience to cope with unexpected situations. Only years of driving can do that.

'Skill' is the next one and possibly defensive driving courses would help to fill that gap. The issue currently is that most courses are horribly expensive and a simply not affordable. Maybe the government should put some of the revenue from fine collection (speed cameras and the like) into free and compulsory driving courses. Years ago my company put me through a single day and it was a valuable experience but again it takes time to learn those skills properly so that they become second nature. A compulsory (paid) course running on weekends over 6-8 weeks would give more time to really learn skills.

The final and most important thing is maturity. No amount of learner driving hours, tests or advanced driving courses can help with this one.

[time]

Got my licence 41 years ago, in Canberra.  It required me to drive around the block!  5 mins max, no traffic, no parking (reverse or otherwise) no hill stops or starts, no 3 point turn and no test of the road rules.  The tester was in a hurry to get to the pub for lunch   Now that was getting your licence easy

Glad things have changed.

[dazzler]

I think the current system is pretty good.  There are very few drivers out there that are unable to control a vehicle appropriately.

Of course there are a lot that choose to drive inappropriately and how you prevent that is the difficult issue.

Defensive driving courses sound like a good idea, however through design they tend to be targeted, or at least appealing, to those who already have an interest in being a better driver.    And there is none that I am aware of that spend the time on the road teaching what matters - observation and anticipation. 
 Teaching how to counteract oversteer or understeer is pointless when you havent covered these two.

[Hairs]

The final and most important thing is maturity. No amount of learner driving hours, tests or advanced driving courses can help with this one.

Totally agree 100% with you on that.

[gronk]

I think the current system is pretty good.  There are very few drivers out there that are unable to control a vehicle appropriately



Sorry, but I think you are wrong.....there are very few out there that CAN control their vehicle properly..

If you don't know the basic principles of under and oversteer, and how to correct it ( nobodys implying you need to be rally driver standard ) then you are lacking in some major survival skills..

Sure, if some young ones are taught these skills they will use them to show off, but I'd rather see a young driver CONTROL a car rather than put it in a ditch with someone elses kids inside it ??

[dazzler]

Hi Gronk

Being able to understand and control oversteer and understeer is a great skill, but nowhere near as important as observation and anticipation skills.

You need to control oversteer and understeer when you have exceeded the adhesion of the tyres.  This rarely happens (with the exception of striking a patch of oil on bend in the wet maybe) unless you are;

a) Driving like a tool or;
b) Not observing or anticipating what is going on.

If you can see the bend and anticipate what it will be like then you can reduce your speed accordingly and your knowledge of understeer is not needed.  You also wont get half way through it, panic and lift your foot causing back off oversteer.

Most defensive/advanced driving courses dont teach reading tree lines, peripheral vision or anticipation.  They teach party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform.

The classic is the swerve around a series of cones to replicate a parked car.  Yep, you can show your oversteer ability but in real life where do these cars that suddenly appear in front of you come from?  If your taught to open your eyes, anticipate what is going on then the imaginary car wont fall from the sky....I guarantee it  

cheers

[Hairs]

Most defensive/advanced driving courses dont teach reading tree lines, peripheral vision or anticipation.  They teach party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform.

Spot on, This a skill I learnt some 25 years ago while competing in Cross Country, Hare & Hounds and Enduros on an 81 IT465. Read the tree line, not so much the ground in front of you. You would get a sense of where the track was going.

anticipation, It is amazing how many times, you get a feeling that another motorist will, pull out in front of you, turn without indicating or change lane suddenly and you prepare yourself for it.

Another pet hate of mine is,
People don't use their mirrors, you see it all the time. How many times have come up behind someone, indicate to overtake, just get to their drivers door and they crap themselves or at worse move over without looking drifting into your lane.
I get this all the time on the country roads I travel on. You can follow them for miles, can't overtake, as soon as you do, they start drifting across blocking you from passing.

[blackstump]

hmmmm...interesting replys,

the party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform are the exact same party tricks that will save your ass when the person coming the other way isnt anticipating or observing......

Reading tree lines wont save you when when you have been forced off the road, or find yourself sideways, its controlling the vehicle using your party tricks that you have learned in an attempt to regain some control.




 

[Heiny]

Hi Gronk

Being able to understand and control oversteer and understeer is a great skill, but nowhere near as important as observation and anticipation skills.

You need to control oversteer and understeer when you have exceeded the adhesion of the tyres.  This rarely happens (with the exception of striking a patch of oil on bend in the wet maybe) unless you are;

a) Driving like a tool or;
b) Not observing or anticipating what is going on.

If you can see the bend and anticipate what it will be like then you can reduce your speed accordingly and your knowledge of understeer is not needed.  You also wont get half way through it, panic and lift your foot causing back off oversteer.

Most defensive/advanced driving courses dont teach reading tree lines, peripheral vision or anticipation.  They teach party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform.

The classic is the swerve around a series of cones to replicate a parked car.  Yep, you can show your oversteer ability but in real life where do these cars that suddenly appear in front of you come from?  If your taught to open your eyes, anticipate what is going on then the imaginary car wont fall from the sky....I guarantee it  

cheers

I totally disagree with you Dazzler

The situation you describe with a patch of oil on the road only applies to sealed roads!! howerver unsealed roads are a totally different in terms of available grip from the road surface and also very inconsistant with available grip from the road surface!!s
Someone does not need to drive like a "tool" to exceed the adhesion of the tyres on an unsealed road it can and does happen to anyone, its when this does happen that having an understanding of understeer and oversteer can mean the difference between disater and getting youself out of trouble.
I think most of us on here are aware that cars and obsticles do not just drop out of the sky but they are a reality e.g car infront of you slams on their brakes, you drive over a crest and a car has stopped over the other side, you get cut off, irresponsible and underskilled actions of other road users and the list goes on.
I do agree that observation and anticipation are very important but they go hand in hand with other defensive driving skills, im not sure which defensive/advanced driving courses that you have undertaken or watched, but none that I have heard about in any way teach or promote party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform, they teach driving skills that could save your or someone elses life.

[Fivid]

Lots of good points amongst the previous replies.  I was lucky enough to spend a week at the advanced driver training centre in Shepparton as part of year 10 schooling.  I still remember some of the things learnt there and have no doubt forgotten plenty in the past 30 odd years since then.  Learning how a car handles on a skid pan is great and has certainly saved me in the past.  Separate licences for trailers and larger vehicles I think would be good.  Some testing at licence renewal would be good also.  I would also be tempted to say that people who predominantly live and spend time in the city should do a "country driving" course before heading off on long country trips away from the highways and maybe us that live in the country and only head to the city a couple of times per year should not be allowed to drive in the city during peak hour without doing a special "city driving" course.     
I remember some time back there was an add on TV that said lots of country accidents happen on bends.  The amount of people that drive around left hand bends with the front wheel on the centre white line is incredible.  No wonder accidents happen on bends.  If they have to react they need to steer sharply inward and that can be dangerous and hard to control.  If they had their passenger front wheel on the side white line they have more room to manouver and can actually straighten the line of the car without crossing into the opposing traffic.  There are also lots of other common issues such as roundabout usage and other things described in earlier threads.  No wonder the government can't work it out, there are so many ideas and so many problems!

[McGirr]

I can see everyone will have their own opinion on this one.

Accidents happen no matter how good a driver you are. I have been in 3 myself over the years and it was the fauilt of the other drivers. They were all over 35 the drivers.

There is never the perfect answer. I tell my daughter to look around , look 100mtres ahead and be ready for anything. We will never stop every accident which is a shame and try every concept out there to prevent them but at the end of the day we all hope it will never happen to our family.

Mark

[gronk]

Yep, accidents will always happen....but with some decent education, maybe not as many..

Come holiday time...why do we have so many fatalities ??.........impatience and inexperience....lots of city people heading up the coast...inexperienced at overtaking...bit of bad judgement.....head on with a car going the other way..all sounds familiar !!!!

Going round a bend, either too fast or not paying attention...off into the dirt...no idea how to control under/over steer....either a head on or into a tree !!!

You can be a very careful driver, but without some decent driving skills, you are at the mercy of the other road users, but sometimes no matter how good a driver you are, you can't prevent all of the other idiots trying to hit you ..

[Hairs]

but sometimes no matter how good a driver you are, you can't prevent all of the other idiots trying to hit you ..

Sir, Take a prize from the top shelf.

 
Safe Travels.

 

[dazzler]

I dont think a few of you are actually taking the time to consider what I have actually said before "totally disagreeing".

Advanced/defensive driving courses are good to have, but they are the cart, not the horse.

Put another way.  A defensive driving course where you are taught anticipation and observation would be perfect.  It would teach you how to avoid the situation in the first place.

EG  A car slams its brakes on in front of you.  Were you maintaining a 2sec gap?  Were you looking past the car in front and using your peripheral vision to monitor it?  If you are not doing this then what are your options?  You have 2 options.  

Swerve around the braking car or brake yourself.  Which makes more sense?  Where are you swerving to?  Into oncoming traffic?  Into a power pole on the verge?  Or into a vacant lane on either side.  Well if there was a vacant lane then you should have been in it or at least dropped back off the vehicle in front.

Braking is the other option.  And its the better option.  The only damage you will cause will be rear to rear rather than head on into a stationary object or a vehicle travelling the other way.  And because you have been taught observation you can brake the moment the vehicle in front does. Sure you could try and threshold brake as taught at the defensive driving course but you may as well just engage the ABS (most cars today have ABS) which on virtually all vehicles cycles faster and is more efficient than threshold braking (which under stress is very hard to accomplish).  

The car stopped on the top of a hill scenario - Were you anticipating that there may be an obstacle over the hill?  If not why not?  Were you covering your brake pedal as you transitioned from a zone of visibility to a zone of invisibility? Have you slowed as you came into the zone?

Once again what is your option if you havent seen the obstacle till too late?  Swerve or brake.  Swerve into oncoming traffic? Swerve off onto the verge? Or brake?  Braking is probably the safest option as above.  Given that you have suddenly arrived at the obstacle you have virtually no time to determine the safest option so will react instinctively.  Which for most is to slam on the brakes because they just want it to stop.

Maybe the best way to explain what I am talking about is this.  Have you noticed when you see highway patrol cars going real fast that they are not oversteering, understeering or swerving all over the place but generally have a smooth but fast transition through traffic or bends or whatever.  Its because observation and anticipation are primary in the training.  Those drivers can power slide around eastern creek till the cows come home, but will fail if they dont have obs and anticipation.

Defensive driving courses are fine, but they are not the answer unless they incorporate the other two and I havent seen one that does.

cheers

[not quite there yet]

Hi guys.  This is an interesting thread.  I have two points to add to the discussion.

1) Education doesn't always overcome foolish decisions and immaturity.  I have a friend who is an excellent father and took his oldest son to traffic court to show him from the coal face some of the things that occur on the road.  This was before the oldest some got his license.  3 xmas ago the son who had passed the test took two of his brothers to xmas shopping for the family.  On the way home, he lost control of the vehicle and smashed into a tree killing himself and one of his brothers.  Though prevantitive courses have their place it is not the be all and end all.

2) my second concern with more licensing is the opportunity for further revenue raising from the government.  The focus could shift from driver education to it being a money making exercise.  Let's face it we all pay more than enought money to the government

[SteveandViv]

I'm with you Dazzler. The whole anticipation thing is paramount to better driving. Even sitting at a set of lights on a hill and the car in front starts to roll back. Why was the person so close in the first place, I don't think people pay enough attention to their surroundings like you say.

I'm not saying this is dangerous but why do people also drive at 80 in a 100zone. I see that frustrating people and IMO can be just as dangerous as going to fast..Especially those that feel the need to speed up when they come to an overtaking lane

[britts]

x2
No body will ever be as good a driver as the person behind the wheel, we all think that everybody else is a bad driver especialy when we have to follow them, , truth be known we all do things that endanger ourselves & other when we drive but just cant see it, the only way our Learners will get any better is to do the same as we all did, learn from our mistakes & just maybe before anyone gets hurt they might realise that mum or dad may have been right when they said being behind the wheel was dangerous.

[rescue1]

There's an easy way to help educate your children about the risks on the road. Find the nearest road accident rescue unit and ask if you can bring your kids down on a training day / night. See if they can be inside the car when the hydraulic tools are used to tear the car open. The noise will be enough to get most people to slow down. The stories of some of the jobs should fix the rest

[alnjan]

Interesting comments, we all have our own opinion and some comments I can agree with others I disagree with, but you get that.

Just want to add something else to the mix, thats going around this discusion.    The vehicle itself.  More so the technology in the vehicle itself.  I notice 'most' posters here are......older then younger.... and the vehicles we learnt to drive in and lets admit it, pushed to the boundaries of our driving ability to learn and hone our driving skills handle a lot different to todays vehicles.  

The last accident I had and other near accidents have all been due to modern technology and offering such things as driver assisted technology, such as ABS, stability and traction control.  What we learnt to do and how to handle a vehicle now is all thrown out becasue a vehicle with the likes of stability control, will act the complete opposite of how we learnt to drive.  Vehicles are being developed in such a way that the same driver skills and knowledge we learnt are not required. 

But at the end of the day regardless of all other factors and weather, it all comes down to the driver, driving beyond there means and ability, including driving knowledge, skill, vehicle and road condition etc.  

[maddo]

Many a valid point here.
I don’t know what group I fall into but being in my late forties I suspect the middle ground ( I peak ages ago).
I believe a license is a lot harder to get than in my day. I think many are right to say observation and anticipation are essential but also so are the skills to handle the particular vehicle you are driving, be it a bike, car, 4wd or truck, I definitely believe that there should be license groups for vehicle size and towing and that everyone should be retested on a regular basis say 5 years.
Risk assessment is the tool that I believe improves with age, added to the fact that most of us become more risk adverse as we age. We see danger in more places through our life experiences but at some point as we get slower and slower we become a risk in ourselves even if we don’t see it.
Perhaps driving is a little like hump day, the young have the reflexes and vigour, the oldies have experience, in the middle somewhere each person peaks, some’s peaks may be higher than others.
I believe that the safety of vehicles these days is vastly superior to the past and in most cases ( I am very suspect of ABS brakes on gravel or wet black soil) the smarts that they are using are very good. Through my work I had to do a driver training school. We drove cars with all the electronic enhancements but they had fitted switches to bypass each feature. The ability of the stability control to aid in slide correction on the skid pan was amazing to say the least and on road ABS without a doubt will out brake most mere mortals.
 I have some difficulty coming to grips with the speed thing, the adds still say speed is the biggest killer yet we can buy vehicles capable of over 200 kmph why? My work ute is a 3.0 litre Common rail Nissan, it wouldn’t pull the skin off a custard down low but has speed capability that no 3 tonne 4wd needs. Give me gears to get off the mark and low down grunt not a top speed of 150 plus.
Kids now can buy a 4 cylinder rice burner that would make my old 308 ute look silly, and lets face it at some stage they will test it out, we can only hope they survive life’s lessons and be able to look at the next generation and shake their heads when the time comes.

[goob]

I agree with Chippy, a compulsory defensive driver course, and it should be mandatory. There are many P platers who do respect their licence, but there are also just as many drivers who have had their licence for years who still disobey road rules and the law. You can be taught right from wrong but it is only the individual who can decide which path to take. At 17 or 18 i beleive you are old enough to take responsibility for your actions. I mean how many of us have said to our own children, you are old enough to know better and could be talking to an 13 year old.
So i don't beleive in raising the age, not all of us live in a town with access to public transport. It makes it hard when both parents work and you have two kids of working age wanting to work but can't because they don't have a licence. And going to work at an early age would help to install respect, ethics and commitments (i would hope) for the time when they do become of age.

[alnjan]

But when do the drivers do a compulsory defensive driver course.  As learners and P plater's do they the neccessary driving requirements to undertake such a course.  As you say we all learn at different rates, some still don't have it after many years of driving.