Now bullbars under threat - survey

[dazzler]

HI Al

I agree with what much of what you are saying. Except for the pedestrian argument.  For some reason the 4wd movement have created a single 'pedestrian' who is always at fault.  A sort of harold scroooooobie, wearing a bowler hat, with a cane and a cup of tea walking onto roads looking for a hummer.

The reality is pedestrians are hit for lots of reasons.  One of the more common is the crossing with two lanes and one car stops but the car in the free lane doesnt and collects the pedestrian.  The other is the red light runner combined with the eager pedestrian.  Kids are the other pedestrian conveniently left out of the '4wd pedestrian'.  And of course the '4wd pedestrian' wanders onto the road as well.  Lots of different ones with degrees of fault.

Where you live it makes sense to have a bullbar that can take multiple strikes and there should be an exemption for rural areas where the probability of hitting a person is way lower than a roo. Maybe there should be zones where you simply cant have one, areas you can have a smart style bar and areas where you can have a steel one. Sure drivers will try and circumvent it by registering the car in one area however that is easily found out by the cops if needed.   

cheers! 

[Barry G]

HI Al

I agree with what much of what you are saying. Except for the pedestrian argument.  For some reason the 4wd movement have created a single 'pedestrian' who is always at fault.  A sort of harold scroooooobie, wearing a bowler hat, with a cane and a cup of tea walking onto roads looking for a hummer.

The reality is pedestrians are hit for lots of reasons.  One of the more common is the crossing with two lanes and one car stops but the car in the free lane doesnt and collects the pedestrian.  The other is the red light runner combined with the eager pedestrian.  Kids are the other pedestrian conveniently left out of the '4wd pedestrian'.  And of course the '4wd pedestrian' wanders onto the road as well.  Lots of different ones with degrees of fault.

Where you live it makes sense to have a bullbar that can take multiple strikes and there should be an exemption for rural areas where the probability of hitting a person is way lower than a roo. Maybe there should be zones where you simply cant have one, areas you can have a smart style bar and areas where you can have a steel one. Sure drivers will try and circumvent it by registering the car in one area however that is easily found out by the cops if needed.   

cheers! 

x2  Not hard to work out those who need it.  Really hard to see why city based tourists wouldn't be adequately served by something integral.  For example, built in front hitch for the demountable winch.

[NewcastleKnight]

So how many pedestrians have been killed because a vehicle has a bull bar?

[Laith]

Speed kills from what we are told but we can all go and buy a 260kw V8 commodore or falcon. You could ask why people need 260kw on Australian roads. Why not pick on them lol. (By the way, Id love one. Has to be a Holden though).

At the end of the day we, as Australians are one by one having choices made for us. We are being told what is and isn't safe/right for us to do. If we don't just have the decision made for us we get a tax to persuade us.

NK. I too would be curious to see the numbers in relation to bullbars being used. We should also not forget that sometimes if a car hits you, bullbar or not your done. (This is my assumption).

Anyway one thing we can all agree on is that we wont all agree on this. 

[D4D]

The bullbar debate has been ignited by the aftermarket industry (and affiliated business) because its going to cost them $$ to comply.  

Actually if the Euro model is adopted it will cost them their businesses. There is no way to have a steel/alloy bar that complies with the Euro specification. I have colleagues who have moved from AU to the UK who I have talked to about this.

This is what we'll be left with, Mr Smartbar will be rubbing his hands together.

[Barry G]

....  We should also not forget that sometimes if a car hits you, bullbar or not your done. (This is my assumption). ...

If you are hit by a car built to the current standards below the 'design speed' then you "should" be safe.  That is the purpose of proposed bull bar standard, to minimise the degrading of the safety standard of a modern car that has been modified by the fitting of a front bar.

However, above a certain speed, no bar or otherwise, the design parameters would be exceeded and injury / death would be an increasingly likely outcome. No-one is arguing  against the logic of that.

Anyway one thing we can all agree on is that we wont all agree on this. 

Agreed mate!

[D4D]

Barry, I wondered why you were so pro this, then I noticed you drive an Outback. I wonder no more.

[alnjan]

Taken from 4WD Action.  From someone that knows how to do research and not promote knee jerk reactions

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/files/Pedestrian_Safety_Requirement_Summary.pdf

Quote:
Where VFPS (bull bars) are fitted, the following would apply (see Table 2):
? *For vehicles not specifically designed for off-road use, such as passenger cars (eg Holden Commodore, Toyota Camry) and 2WD light commercial vehicles (eg Ford Falcon utility, Ford Transit van), a standard similar to the main bull bar standard as adopted in Europe (2005/66/EC as incorporated in EC 78/2009) and similar to GTR 9.

? *For vehicles specifically designed for off-road use, such as 4WD passenger cars (eg Subaru Forester), 4WD light commercial vehicles (eg Toyota Hilux) and 4WD Sports Utility Vehicles or “SUVs” (eg Toyota Landcruiser, Landrover, Nissan Patrol), a standard already established in Australia (Australian Standard 4876.1 2002). This standard would be more design flexible and has already been partly adopted by NSW and Victorian transport authorities.

• The implementation timing would match that of the base vehicle. Therefore, the requirements would begin applying to those new vehicles subject to the ADR on pedestrian safety in 2013 and would be phased in completely by 2019. Vehicles on the road now would not be affected, as the ADRs are not applied retrospectively.

[Barry G]

Barry, I wondered why you were so pro this, then I noticed you drive an Outback. I wonder no more.

Ah, of course the 'conspiracy theory' again...  (dealt with the "blame the Nazi syndrome a fair way back in this thread)

Hate to burst the bubble however:
1/.  I was one of the first to sign the petition - all in favour of the RFDS getting some dollars;
2/.  I am about to fit a front bar which is compliant with the current regs (and I believe will also be compliant with those proposed, based on the post from alanjan, immediately above - Iwonder what alanjan drive? ...;
3/.  How do you account for Dazzler, who drives a Land Rover ? ...

All that Dazzler, alanjan and I are saying is that the hype spread by the self-interested magazine does not stand a reality check, in that no-one is proposing banning bull bars, merely ensuring that they don't reduce the safety standard built into cars of a given model year, from 2013 onwards.  But that doesn't assist inselling magazines, based on a knee jerk reaction, in an ever tighter publishing market.


Now, ... where did I leave my bowler hat?   

[D4D]

All that Dazzler, alanjan and I are saying is that the hype spread by the self-interested magazine does not stand a reality check, in that no-one is proposing banning bull bars, merely ensuring that they don't reduce the safety standard built into cars of a given model year, from 2013 onwards.  

Well actually it does, if you read my post re what is available in the UK we'll end up the same way. In reality after 2013 there will be no more steel/alloy bars. The bar for your outback probably won't be compliant either. Smartbar anyone...

[alnjan]

At present it is only a proposal on what to do in the future. 

Obviously we do not want to see the end of bull bars, but I think the days are limited of the backyard jobs and other either poorly or non engineered bars and other bars that are def pedestrian unfriendly particularly some of the tube bars.   

As for what I drive, mine is a 89 DC Hilux, complete with bull bar (complete with winch, lights, recovery points and aerial) and brush bars, Jan has a 03 Suzuki Grand Vitara which we will be getting a bull bar for, the two kids each have a Subaru Outback, which will probably stay standard for a while to come.

[britts]

We may be OK, i found this on our 4wd club website.

Hi Delegates,
I had an interesting conversation today with Steven Hoy, (Dept of infrastructure & Transport, NSW)

He tells me that there was no intention of banning the Bullbar, and that they have put a bulletin onto their website to that effect. To save you the trouble of looking I have attached a copy of that bulletin, but for those that want to check the website here it is.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/adr_comment.aspx

However vehicles from 2013 will be subjected to this ADR Australian Standard 4876.1 2002, which is supposedly going to be more flexible? And to be fully implemented by 2019. Whatever evolves for 2013 onwards with the ADR Standard, will not have any affect on vehicles produced prior to 2013 as it will not be retrospective.

From attachment I have cut & pasted an extract from it.

“For vehicles specifically designed for off-road use, such as 4WD passenger cars (eg
Subaru Forester), 4WD light commercial vehicles (eg Toyota Hilux) and 4WD Sports
Utility Vehicles or “SUVs” (eg Toyota Landcruiser, Landrover, Nissan Patrol), a
standard already established in Australia (Australian Standard 4876.1 2002). This
standard would be more design flexible and has already been partly adopted by NSW and
Victorian transport authoritie”.

Steven did go on to say that the EU standard is for passenger, 2wdrive and light commercial vehicles.
4Wdrives will only be subject to the ADR standards.
There was talk of urban and rural vehicles, that is if you lived in the city you were regarded as urban and if you lived in the bush you are rural. 2wd vehicles classed as urban, no vehicle frontal protection, but if you are rural, then you will have some sort of vehicle frontal protection.

Read the attachment including the tables on page 2 and make up your own minds. For my mind, the words of Don Chip keep coming back. “Don’t Trust The Bastards”.

We still need to be vigilant on this and keep referring clubs/members/public to complete the surveys and build up our ammunition and keep our powder dry.

Regards,
Eric Morey
President 4WDAustralia
president@4wdaustralia.asn.au

0427 772601
 

[Darcy7]

This subject seems to come up at least once a year for some reason.  Must help sell magazines or something or perhaps bullbars...!!???  (What's the real conspiracy...??...mmmm)

In any case, if you think this through to its logical conclusion, you will soon realise a bad on bullbars wil NEVER happen for one reason only......The rural vote.  No government in its right mind would ever ban bullbars for fear of a massive backlash from the cockies.

Rest easy guys and gals...!

[ytt105]

I just did a very quick google of pedestrian fatalities.

http://www.tacsafety.com.au/jsp/content/NavigationController.do?areaID=12&tierID=1&navID=57348A10&navLink=null&pageID=149

The site I found seems to be Victorian stats.

50 killed in 2009, 17% of road fatalities.
80% were in Melbourne metro area
66% were in 50kph or 60kph areas

No info on how many of these had or did not have a bullbar, but I would think a good guess would be that more vehicles DID NOT have a bar.

Seems to me that as per usual, Govts. are good at finding solutions for problems that don't exist.

By the way I live in Canberra and can tell you that during the drought I saw 'thousands' of roos IN Canberra. On my nightly return home (11.00pm or later) I would pass at least 30 roos 'grazing the long paddock' nearly every night.

Would Canberra be classified 'city' or 'rural', and please no Canberra bashing. Real people live here too!

A few other facts;

Death tolls that are higher than the road toll each year include;

breast cancer
prostate cancer
bowel cancer
workplace accidents

Lots of these could be preventable deaths, but they don't make as much money as 'road safety'.

[dazzler]

By the way I live in Canberra and can tell you that during the drought I saw 'thousands' of roos IN Canberra. On my nightly return home (11.00pm or later) I would pass at least 30 roos 'grazing the long paddock' nearly every night.

Would Canberra be classified 'city' or 'rural', and please no Canberra bashing. Real people live here too!

Hi ytt

Love Canberra.  Wish the media would stop referring to Canberra and Politicians in the same sentence.  There not Canberrans 

Anyways.  Canberra has lots of roos.  And lots get hit by cars.  But no-one has been killed by a kangaroo strike in Canberra for as long as I can remember.  Maybe it happened when i was away for holidays at some stage but cant recall it ever happening.  The closest was two drunk chicks hitting one on the Monaro late one night and it ended up in with them going off its nut.  A few scratches but that was all.  I also rode a bike or drove a car for seven hours a day/night, most days and never hit one.  Probability was high but I suppose I was lucky.

Canberra is rural.  But the stats will not support bullbars as a safety issue, I guarantee you. An insurance issue of course, but thats only money, not lives.

The proposal is not anti bullbar.  Its not vehicles with bullbars vs those without. Its about reducing the degree of injury to pedestrians from ALL cars.  Bullbars have been dragged into it because they will be the most difficult for manufacturers to modify to comply.  But the manufacturers lie, and get 4wders all worked up for their own benefit because europe already has euro compliant bars.  Sure they may not be tough looking, but I am sure we can deal with that.

So your figures re Victoria are correct but to then bring bullbars into it does not automatically follow.  The question is of those deaths how many would have survived if ALL vehicles met the euro specs.  It also doesn't take into account how many were seriously injured (head injuries/spinal etc) which would be a far larger sample.

So the proposal has to be kept in context.  Its about reducing road trauma to pedestrians from ALL new vehicles, not bullbar equipped ones.

cheers

[GGV8Cruza]

We won!! Well I thnk we did??

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/news/44599-mammoth-victory-saves-bullbars

GG

[Variflex]

Thats good to hear, glad i filled out the letters and survey now

[TroyE]

  got a link to the official press release
 http://www.minister.infrastructure.gov.au/ck/releases/2011/February/CK006_2011.htm   

[Darcy7]

Stick that up your Khyber Pass, Harold Scruby....!!

[Barry G]

And you a Subi driver and all Darcy. 

I wonder if those driving around with their burger cutters 'armed' will now be 'victimised' for ... um ... breaking the law? 

[dazzler]

Geez, a politician with the backbone of a jelly fish......who'd a thunk it 


Bloody democracy 

[Darcy7]

And you a Subi driver and all Darcy. 

HA HA  Fact is I probably represent everything that guy hates.  Big 4WD with bullbar, fast car with loud exhaust and a full head of hair at 42..! 

Actually maybe I can go all out and create something like this...

[DANBRI]

If they made the smart bar less offensive to the eye, I feel there would be more who could sway.

Personally, if the smart bar wasn't so ugly, I'd have one. I don't care if others think it looks great, I can't stand the look and I'd have to never walk past the front of my car again. But functionality is great. I had one on a mining ute, you could bump into things, push other cars etc, really handy. It was just so ugly.

[Barry G]

If they made the smart bar less offensive to the eye, I feel there would be more who could sway.

Personally, if the smart bar wasn't so ugly, I'd have one. I don't care if others think it looks great, I can't stand the look and I'd have to never walk past the front of my car again. But functionality is great. I had one on a mining ute, you could bump into things, push other cars etc, really handy. It was just so ugly.

I think that is the real point Danbri, the anti-campaign has been responded to primarily by the 4X4 version of 'ricer boys' who are more interested in looks than functionality. 
There is absolutely no doubt that with several years lead time, our wonderful free enterprise system could've refined the smart bar so it was more of a 'fashion statement' - although Roothy would probably never be satisfied with anything less than rusty angle iron.
Magazine and accessory industry are primarily about consuming fashion - not function, but it is not in their interests to say so, and the hairy chested 'followers of fashion' would certainly never admit to anything so 'girlie'! 
Of course it breaks the rules of 4X4 political correctness to say any of this, but surprising how many agree with it over a beer 1:1.

[GeoffA]

If you've never hit anything, you might think bull bars are all about cosmetics, and that plastic is OK.
A few years ago, on a dark moonless night, we hit a cow at 110km/h on the Hume freeway, near Wandong.
I'm staying with steel..........