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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: paceman on July 20, 2015, 07:05:38 AM
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hi all,
looking for advice from the builders/carpenters/home renovators... :)
i have some shower shelves i want to install, but i am just trying to decide what sort of fastener to use...
my shower has tiles attached to 'villaboard' (i think is it's name) and i was going to use something like this:
(http://www.ramset.com.au/Resources/Website/Product/Detail/img403p88.jpg)
one for each side of the shelf.
i know that i have to get a proper tile bit (with some tape on the tile to stop movement, etc) but i was wondering if there are any other fastener options?
the 10KG weight limit on the toggle bolts shown is enough...
the shelf attachment doesn't really lend itself to using liquid nails, and the advice i got from the retailer (reece) was that screwing in was the norm?
any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Whatever fixing you choose, make sure you don't drill through (or damage) the waterproofing membrane.
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Whatever fixing you choose, make sure you don't drill through (or damage) the waterproofing membrane.
i have to, don't i? doesn't it sit between the tiles and the villaboard?
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What size is the shelf and what do you intend to put on it?
You should realy put at least one faster in a stud.and if you go on a grout join you could drill through the tile only and glue the shelf on and screw into the villa board with the second screw.
I don't recommend using plugs as they almost always fail in this situation or crack tiles.
U usualy add timber prior to lining to carry the shelf ect.
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What size is the shelf and what do you intend to put on it?
You should realy put at least one faster in a stud.and if you go on a grout join you could drill through the tile only and glue the shelf on and screw into the villa board with the second screw.
I don't recommend using plugs as they almost always fail in this situation or crack tiles.
U usualy add timber prior to lining to carry the shelf ect.
thanks for the info...
i am going to try and put one in a stud, but just trying to see if i am on the right track with fasteners for no-stud area.. :)
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Got a picture of the shelf?
And what weight are you putting g on it?
A screw will hold in the cement sheet fine, just drill clearance through the tile so it dosn't crack...Don't drill through the cement sheet and sikaflex the back of the shelf, or translucent silicone to help spread the load.
But the key thing is don't put much weight on the shelf
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Got a picture of the shelf?
And what weight are you putting g on it?
A screw will hold in the cement sheet fine, just drill clearance through the tile so it dosn't crack...Don't drill through the cement sheet and sikaflex the back of the shelf, or translucent silicone to help spread the load.
But the key thing is don't put much weight on the shelf
pic below:
(http://www.reece.com.au/assets/products/149000/275086/_resampled/SetSize695521-Phoenix-Gen-X-Shower-Basket-275086-hero-1.jpg)
maybe 1-2 kgs on the shelf?
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I'd use super strong double sided tape or polyurethane adhesive as well as screws but tell the Mrs and kids it's not a grab handle and not to load it up much.
I'm not realy a fan of them in showers for those two reasons.
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If you do drill the tile and penetrate the wall silicon must be applied to the hole and the screw thread to keep the shower membrane intact.
I would not be using any fixing method that relies on a toggle or compression fixing as at some time there will be a failure. When we build are bathrooms we install noggings to take fixtures, this is more difficult in an older bathroom.
Have you though of something like this that is easy to fix,
http://www.hsw.com.au/?product&id_prod=5957&id_cat=108&id_dept=539#.Vawlw_mqqko (http://www.hsw.com.au/?product&id_prod=5957&id_cat=108&id_dept=539#.Vawlw_mqqko)
GG
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If you do drill the tile and penetrate the wall silicon must be applied to the hole and the screw thread to keep the shower membrane intact.
I would not be using any fixing method that relies on a toggle or compression fixing as at some time there will be a failure. When we build are bathrooms we install noggings to take fixtures, this is more difficult in an older bathroom.
Have you though of something like this that is easy to fix,
http://www.hsw.com.au/?product&id_prod=5957&id_cat=108&id_dept=539#.Vawlw_mqqko (http://www.hsw.com.au/?product&id_prod=5957&id_cat=108&id_dept=539#.Vawlw_mqqko)
GG
we've tried suction shelves before... they just don't work (for us, anyways...)
plus, we already have the new shelves... :) got them in a package deal with a new towel rack and dunny roll holder...
those HSW shelves look OK, might be stronger than the other ones we have seen?
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we've tried suction shelves before... they just don't work (for us, anyways...)
plus, we already have the new shelves... :) got them in a package deal with a new towel rack and dunny roll holder...
those HSW shelves look OK, might be stronger than the other ones we have seen?
I would just go with a green plug (not the cheap ones supplied with the shelf) to start and see how they hold, if you can find a stud for at least one fitting it will help, but that can be difficult if the whole wall is tiled.
GG
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I would just go with a green plug (not the cheap ones supplied with the shelf) to start and see how they hold, if you can find a stud for at least one fitting it will help, but that can be difficult if the whole wall is tiled.
GG
like these:
(https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product-800x800/86243dc3-38d4-401f-bc48-c2bbaeaac2a9.jpg)
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Yes, I would use those, a squirt of clear silicone as you put it in the wall and then a squirt on the tread of the screw.
To drill the tile I would use either of the attached, no hammer just slow drilling as not to produce too much heat, water dip if needed. Depending on the type of tile I normally use the first type of drill bit which cores the tile, 6mm for the green plug. I would also locate the hole in the tile face not too close to the edge or in the joint, you can easily crack and chip the tile in this area.
GG
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If you do drill through the tile use a masonry drill bit but turn off the hammer function on the drill.
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thanks for the info, guys...
we may end up returning the shelves, depending on how the previously linked HSW shelves go...
might get one to test before returning the others... :)
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Yes, I would use those, a squirt of clear silicone as you put it in the wall and then a squirt on the tread of the screw.
To drill the tile I would use either of the attached, no hammer just slow drilling as not to produce too much heat, water dip if needed. Depending on the type of tile I normally use the first type of drill bit which cores the tile, 6mm for the green plug. I would also locate the hole in the tile face not too close to the edge or in the joint, you can easily crack and chip the tile in this area.
GG
I recently placed one of these extendable magnification vanity mirrors on the tilled wall in our bathroom and I used 1st drill bits which GGV8Cruza posted up. Had a cup of water which I dipped the drill bit into every 30 seconds to keep it cool and remove dust and it worked a treat. Then put a couple of those green wall plus and worked well.
This method was recommend by a tiler friend who also lent me a drill bit template (This has about 6 holes which you use as a template, so suction this device over the hole with the appropriate sized bit you need to drill your hole and it stops your drill bit moving around – Worked very well)
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GGV8Cruza is on the money with just using plugs and silicone, though i prefer to use the ram plugs over the green plugs myself.... like these http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Detail/77/RamPlug-Nylon-Frame-Anchors (http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Detail/77/RamPlug-Nylon-Frame-Anchors) I have done heaps like he has said on new fit offs in bathrooms. I always make sure i put silicone in the hole and on the back of the backing plate you fix to the wall also, you'd be surprised at how well silicone helps hold stuff on. Just don't go overboard with the silicone... if it spews out to far where it'll be seen, give all around it a squirt with soapy water from a spray bottle before you touch it, it will help stop you spreading silicone all over the tiles further. The spear shaped drill bits are great to use for most tiles, if you get really hard ones the type pictured above those he has posted work great with plenty of water from a spray bottle as you go to keep the drill bit cool.
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As it turns out, I have a box of spare tiles to play with, so I can test my drilling skills before attempting to damage the real tiles... :D
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Which drill bit do you have?
GG
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Which drill bit do you have?
GG
haven't got one yet, but was thinking this one (6.5mm is the green plug size i have as well):
http://www.bunnings.com.au/sutton-tools-6-5mm-glass-and-tile-drill-bit_p6350098 (http://www.bunnings.com.au/sutton-tools-6-5mm-glass-and-tile-drill-bit_p6350098)
(https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product-800x800/e2d76503-9c6b-4b9f-beea-a8e77b5b1965.jpg)
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And make sure of where you are drilling - well away from any electrical cable or water pipes behind.
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As Hewys suggesting, turn the power off or flood the floor and get my MIL to do the drilling.
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haven't got one yet, but was thinking this one (6.5mm is the green plug size i have as well):
http://www.bunnings.com.au/sutton-tools-6-5mm-glass-and-tile-drill-bit_p6350098 (http://www.bunnings.com.au/sutton-tools-6-5mm-glass-and-tile-drill-bit_p6350098)
(https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product-800x800/e2d76503-9c6b-4b9f-beea-a8e77b5b1965.jpg)
Should be fine. No hammer. Slow drill. Heat is your enemy. Good luck
Gag
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Aldi have them on sale for $5 per shelf. DON'T BUY IT!! ITS CRAP!!!
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What are the tiles? Stone, ceremic, porcelain?
If just ceremic with a clay back you won't have an issue with any type of the drills mentioned. If they are stone or porcelain, I would be using the diamond cutter gg put a pic off before. Even some ceramics are a nightmare, sometimes.
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What are the tiles? Stone, ceremic, porcelain?
If just ceremic with a clay back you won't have an issue with any type of the drills mentioned. If they are stone or porcelain, I would be using the diamond cutter gg put a pic off before. Even some ceramics are a nightmare, sometimes.
Ceramic with a clay back...
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Ceramic with a clay back...
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Should be easy mate. Just light pressure, slow drill speed, the the drill and drill bit do the work. If you get scared, I just happen to be passing through your area in about 2 weeks. :D ;D
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I've used Selleys Liquid Nails for Mirror, metal and Glass successfully before for similar applications.
http://www.bunnings.com.au/selleys-310g-liquid-nails-mirror-metal-and-glass_p1231848 (http://www.bunnings.com.au/selleys-310g-liquid-nails-mirror-metal-and-glass_p1231848)
Will save any drilling through tiles but you will have to brace the shelf while the glue sets. If the tiles are dry
you can use duct tape for support.
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I've used Selleys Liquid Nails for Mirror, metal and Glass successfully before for similar applications.
Watch out using construction adhesive like liquid nail. Its not very flexible and goes very brittle after 5 or so years.
For mirrors use a combination of double sided tape and silicone.
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Watch out using construction adhesive like liquid nail. Its not very flexible and goes very brittle after 5 or so years.
For mirrors use a combination of double sided tape and silicone.
Sent from my GT-I9507 using Tapatalk
yes you are right, but make sure you use an neutral cure (roof and gutter) silicon for mirrors.
Lucky he is not hanging a mirror though ;)
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Ramset make a wall plug suitable for cement sheet. They have a black rubber base with a nut at the back, and as you tighten the screw, the rubber clamps around the front of the tile and the back of the cement sheet. Needs a 10mm hole from memory
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These with marine grade stainless steel screws and a touch of silicone to ensure no water egress-
http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Detail/87/RamToggle-Nylon-Cavity-Fastener (http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Detail/87/RamToggle-Nylon-Cavity-Fastener)
and note that trades and applications tab-
So if there's an accidental slip and they grab for the shelf they should break off at the rear and pull out without damaging the villaboard and tiles.
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Can you get a similar shelf with suction caps? There is a fair range out there.
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Can you get a similar shelf with suction caps? There is a fair range out there.
i got an everloc branded shelf as a test unit and it seems to be relatively stable, but after one week, it is already showing signs of rust in the joins. disappointing.
at that rate of rust, i reckon i would have to replace within a year and at their pricing, it doesn't make a huge amount of sense.
the screw-in shelves i have are brass with a chrome finish, so i am hoping that will be better with regards to rust and they also have a 7 year warranty, which i like... :)
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"the screw-in shelves i have are brass with a chrome finish"
Yep lots of crappy import chrome that won't last more than a year or so without corrosion so that 7 yr guarantee probably indicates better quality chrome and then there's quality stainless steel to consider. Problem with crap chrome/SS stuff is you're going to drill the tiles for it and if it doesn't last it's unlikely the replacement will share the same fixing points so choose very wisely to begin with. That usually means expensive but read the fine print on the guarantees.
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thanks for the info...
i am going to try and put one in a stud, but just trying to see if i am on the right track with fasteners for no-stud area.. :)
Don't know what others have said, but those type of fasteners will do the job easily. Just be sure to fill the hole with a sealer (I prefer a polyurethane type sealant) after the toggle has been put through, can take three hands to achieve.
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Don't know what others have said, but those type of fasteners will do the job easily.
No they're not suitable as being nickel plated they'll be dribbling rust within the year and I don't recall they come in marine grade SS imperative although they'd be OK if they did but they need a bigger hole and sloppier fit to hide than those Ramsets.
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These with marine grade stainless steel screws and a touch of silicone to ensure no water egress-
http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Detail/87/RamToggle-Nylon-Cavity-Fastener (http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Detail/87/RamToggle-Nylon-Cavity-Fastener)
and note that trades and applications tab-
So if there's an accidental slip and they grab for the shelf they should break off at the rear and pull out without damaging the villaboard and tiles.
i don't mind these ones either...
might have to do some testing between these and the green plugs already suggested...
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I am a glazier and fit lots of showers and mirrors, you should not use silicon or sika for mirrors as it eats the silver backing over time, I use " mirror max" for this job. On drilling holes into tile, I never use silicon in the holes but I am drilling a 3mm that gets filled with screws or slight bigger with plugs, on any hole bigger yes then use sealant, most times you can't pick up the stud after the fact but the blue board is enough generally
Cheers
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i don't mind these ones either...
might have to do some testing between these and the green plugs already suggested...
Yep I've used both the wall plugs (spaghetti form usually) and the nylon wall toggles successfully with SS screws bearing in mind the cavity wall anchors on offer-
http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Section/22/Plasterboard-Cavity-Anchors (http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Section/22/Plasterboard-Cavity-Anchors)
Apart from corrosion problems with nickle plated steel toggles and the like, you need to bear in mind here they require a 14.28mm (9/16") hole to fit whereas the nylon toggles only 8mm and the wall plugs 7mm
The advice re silicon with mirrors is sound although there is safe non-ascetic silicon and I learned the hard way with a recommended specialised silicon mirror adhesive that construction adhesive is really the go, particularly with vinyl backed plain mirrors-
http://www.bunnings.com.au/selleys-310g-liquid-nails-mirror-metal-and-glass_p1231848 (http://www.bunnings.com.au/selleys-310g-liquid-nails-mirror-metal-and-glass_p1231848)
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Yep I've used both the wall plugs (spaghetti form usually) and the nylon wall toggles successfully with SS screws bearing in mind the cavity wall anchors on offer-
http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Section/22/Plasterboard-Cavity-Anchors (http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Section/22/Plasterboard-Cavity-Anchors)
Apart from corrosion problems with nickle plated steel toggles and the like, you need to bear in mind here they require a 14.28mm (9/16") hole to fit whereas the nylon toggles only 8mm and the wall plugs 7mm
The advice re silicon with mirrors is sound although there is safe non-ascetic silicon and I learned the hard way with a recommended specialised silicon mirror adhesive that construction adhesive is really the go, particularly with vinyl backed plain mirrors-
http://www.bunnings.com.au/selleys-310g-liquid-nails-mirror-metal-and-glass_p1231848 (http://www.bunnings.com.au/selleys-310g-liquid-nails-mirror-metal-and-glass_p1231848)
thanks again for the info...
so, could i use the green wall plugs that i was originally going to use, with a dab or two of the liquid nails product you have linked to, to give it a bit of extra hold on the tile?
the shelf has a towel-rack type fitting, which is a small metal circular plate, that can take up to four screws. the shelf holder than sits over this plate, with a small screw (allen key head) to be tightened from the bottom to get it to stay fixed to the plate...
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just use the green plugs mate. :cheers:
Non- ascetic silicon is just roof and gutter silicon, shelleys put a fancy name on it and throw an extra $4 on the price. Tip, if you cut it open and it smells like vinegar, dont use it on your mirror, or anything metal, like copper pipes.
:cheers:
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Yes well with the round plate and 4 holes you might want to use smaller wall plugs and screws like the red 6mm or even white 5mm and appropriate screws (presumably provided already)-
http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=ramset%20wall%20plugs&redirectFrom=Any (http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=ramset%20wall%20plugs&redirectFrom=Any)
or simply only 2 of the larger plugs and screws in each round plate as 4 large holes together could weaken the Villaboard and tile. You could glue the plugs as well but generally if you've drilled the correct size hole they won't turn before the screw really bites. Just be aware here that your wall could be aquacheck plasterboard in which case definitely the appropriate depth nylon toggles and only 2 per round plate.
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Yes well with the round plate and 4 holes you might want to use smaller wall plugs and screws like the red 6mm or even white 5mm and appropriate screws (presumably provided already)-
http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=ramset%20wall%20plugs&redirectFrom=Any (http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=ramset%20wall%20plugs&redirectFrom=Any)
or simply only 2 of the larger plugs and screws in each round plate as 4 large holes together could weaken the Villaboard and tile. You could glue the plugs as well but generally if you've drilled the correct size hole they won't turn before the screw really bites. Just be aware here that your wall could be aquacheck plasterboard in which case definitely the appropriate depth nylon toggles and only 2 per round plate.
yea, i was only going to use 2 plug per mount plate...
green plugs it is!
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thanks to all for the advice...
shelves are up with no dramas (so far)... green plugs and silicon...
happy wife, happy life... :)