Post by: KeithB on October 01, 2014, 09:59:39 PM
Is it necessary to change the filter at the same time, given the low mileage on the oil?
Or would I be better to extend to 10,000 km and change both?
I am now on a retirement income and need to watch the pennies.
Keith
Post by: Symon on October 01, 2014, 10:46:19 PM
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Post by: KeithB on October 01, 2014, 11:37:51 PM
Because I do a 10-15 minute trip to and from my part time work in stop start heavy traffic plus short local trips and I don't think the oil ever properly warms up.
Maybe I've got it wrong. Dunno. Hence the question.
Keith
Post by: Bird on October 01, 2014, 11:41:50 PM
Quote from: KeithB
Or would I be better to extend to 10,000 km and change both?Yes.. but that's your call... Oil is cheap compared to an engine rebuild.
Or go with Amsoil and prefilter setups.... not cheap to setup, and the oil isn't cheap but Roachie was getting 50,000kls out of his oil when sending it for testing each 5000klms.
Post by: dazzler on October 02, 2014, 06:45:33 AM
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Post by: slcs78 on October 02, 2014, 06:54:21 AM
Post by: fishfinder on October 02, 2014, 07:28:51 AM
Post by: Symon on October 02, 2014, 09:01:42 AM
Symon
Because I do a 10-15 minute trip to and from my part time work in stop start heavy traffic plus short local trips and I don't think the oil ever properly warms up.
Maybe I've got it wrong. Dunno. Hence the question.
Keith
Ever measured it? 10-15km in city traffic I would be surprised if it didn't get to temperature.
Post by: Andreweasty90 on October 02, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
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Post by: Diesel Power on October 02, 2014, 10:37:46 AM
Regards
Angus
Post by: Mrs smith on October 02, 2014, 10:55:23 AM
Here's a small quote from US site.
Well, here is what the manufacturers say constitutes severe driving conditions; you can draw your own conclusions.
Most of your trips are less than four miles.
Most of your trips are less than ten miles and outside temperatures are below freezing.
The engine is at low speed most of the time – not on the highway. You operate your vehicle in dusty areas.
You regularly tow a trailer or carry heavy loads.
Drive with a car-top carrier.
Stop and go driving.
Driving in very hot or very cold weather.
Post by: rotare on October 02, 2014, 11:45:27 AM
When was the last time you heard of someone needing their engine re-built because they only serviced their vehicle according to manufacturers specs? IMO, service the vehicle regularly and by the book, and by the time you have to worry about whether the engine needs rebuilding you've probably already parted ways with the vehicle anyways....
Post by: dazzler on October 02, 2014, 12:04:49 PM
?
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Post by: fishfinder on October 02, 2014, 04:00:28 PM
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?????????????????????????????????????
Post by: Bullant4x4 on October 02, 2014, 04:19:39 PM
I run my vehicle for about 5min every morning before driving it and idles a lot when camping. So even though it's 5000km on the clock the engine has done more.
Post by: GeoffA on October 02, 2014, 06:01:34 PM
I run my vehicle for about 5min every morning before driving it........
The neighbours must love that.
Why not drive off slowly and warm the whole driveline up together, not just the engine....??
:cheers:
Post by: V8CRSA on October 02, 2014, 08:10:30 PM
I run to and from the city all day for work and I change the oil every 5000 k's and oil filter every 10,000 but that's just me. I have been told ever since I was little change the oil every 5,000 in a diesel and change the filter every other change
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So you spend your hard earn'd on clean new oil and then it goes into a old dirty filter that just contaminates your new oil...........
Just wasting money if you ask me,I don't know of any manufacturer that recommends that ?
Matt
Post by: Black Diamond on October 02, 2014, 08:17:40 PM
So you spend your hard earn'd on clean new oil and then it goes into a old dirty filter that just contaminates your new oil...........agree 100%. Don't see the common sense in not changing the filter at the same time.
Just wasting money if you ask me,I don't know of any manufacturer that recommends that ?
Matt
Post by: GeoffA on October 02, 2014, 10:43:56 PM
Post by: Symon on October 03, 2014, 05:44:35 AM
I run my vehicle for about 5min every morning before driving it and idles a lot when camping. So even though it's 5000km on the clock the engine has done more.
If you have a diesel that is not a good way of looking after it. http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Boreglazing.aspx (http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Boreglazing.aspx)
Post by: Bullant4x4 on October 03, 2014, 06:03:57 AM
If you have a diesel that is not a good way of looking after it. http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Boreglazing.aspx (http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Boreglazing.aspx)
Thanks for the info and making me aware of something I didn't know. Lucky I don't own a yacht :)
I can understand this if all it does is idle to charge a battery for its life and never gets a good run.
It all sounds bad but as long as you give the engine a good blast to remove carbon, all is good. I can't see warming an engine and charging your batteries are going to do damage.
Just like Nan's car that just goes to the shops. Sometimes it needs to go on the motorway to give it a good clean.
Post by: Symon on October 03, 2014, 07:22:07 AM
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Post by: Beachman on October 03, 2014, 08:11:30 AM
In all seriousness glazing is something I’ve been aware of ever since I installed the car shower about 9 years ago, but my theory is yes the engine does idol for 30 minutes per day when camping, but it also normally gets driven hard every day driving the soft sand tracks, so that hopefully reversers some of the effect.
Post by: edz on October 03, 2014, 08:21:41 AM
Post by: dazzler on October 03, 2014, 08:58:15 AM
Seriously. You will be fine.
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Post by: Andreweasty90 on October 03, 2014, 09:52:01 AM
So you spend your hard earn'd on clean new oil and then it goes into a old dirty filter that just contaminates your new oil...........
Just wasting money if you ask me,I don't know of any manufacturer that recommends that ?
Matt
When I drain the oil it's still pretty good and to change the filter every 5,000 would be pointless as it would barely have any contaminates in it. I don't drive the car hard apart from the stop start of traffic but even then I don't take off overly quick
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Post by: Bullant4x4 on October 03, 2014, 11:32:30 AM
I think you missed the point of the article. If the damage is done giving it a good run isn't going to do much.
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Hey Simon, I thought I understood the article but I didn't explain that well.
When you read it, it doesn't sound good letting an engine idle. But as you get to the end I summarized it as:-
If you're a yacht owner with a new engine, just don't let the engine idle, use it and run the engine in or these things can happen. Once it's had it hours of use, these things really won't happen. Which I can understand as yacht owners prefer wind to sail than engines. I also could see them just using it as a big genie (Even they need a load and just can't idle.)
Comparing the article to me, although it was an interesting read, I found didn't have much bearing on my post about warming up my car for 5min before driving it and topping up the batteries. It was good to share the info. I would say yes if it was new and I started it in the morning and left it all day, but it gets driven.
When I purchased the wagon, I only drove easy for the first 5000km, I even changed oil and filter at 1000km. At 6000km I added the front and rear bars. Around 20,000km I got the dual battery.
I recon a car in Sydney peak hour would sit idling more than I do a day :) And if your car doesn't do that much work (start/stop city driving), carbon will build up and needs a good hard drive to clean it out.
So in summing up, it's not good to let an new engine run without a load for very long periods. Once the engine is conditioned these things may happen but very unlikely. If it's in a yacht the engine may not see too much load, if any and these things need to be considered. But being a wagon, it's bound to have load or the wagon goes nowhere.
Maybe this article should be in a Jeep manual since they get towed a lot? :)
Edited
And thanks for being concerned that I maybe doing something wrong.
Post by: RebsWA on October 03, 2014, 12:17:32 PM
Just use the cheapest name brand oil that meets toyota's spec. If the V8 is as good as the old sixes you should get 500k+ kms out of it before the rest of the car falls apart.
Post by: KeithB on October 04, 2014, 11:40:47 PM
Thanks
Keith
Post by: V8CRSA on October 04, 2014, 11:53:14 PM
The oil filter doesn't hold a huge amount of oil, so 5,000 km changes for oil and 10,000 for the filter looks like the way to go.
Thanks
Keith
For the couple of extra $$$ for a filter crazy not to change it at the same time IMHO........
Post by: GeoffA on October 05, 2014, 06:09:40 AM
It's probably a carry-over from the 50ppm days, and we could get into all sorts of discussions about modern 5ppm low sulphur fuels, and high pressure common rail injection systems, etc, etc, but that is my understanding of the basic reasoning.
:cheers:
Post by: kylarama on October 05, 2014, 06:47:17 AM
15k to 20k Service intervals are fine on newer stuff (low km) or owners that look after and monitor their vehicles. Most car owners never check anything, they get it serviced and the bonnet doesn't get opened again until the next service and that sometimes is overdue. 15,000km is a longtime for something to go unchecked on a car that's getting on in its life. I wander around my mates workshop and see all the cars with terminal problems due to issues going unchecked for too long.
I've got 3 cars in the driveway that are all close too or over the 300,000km mark. I do oil and filter in my old 5L powered Hilux every 5K as per the book. Z9 filters are only $5ea and oil changes in these old diesels are crucial to their longevity.
The NM Pajero and BA Egas Falcon get done every 10k in lieu of the books 15k with full syn oils. They all get a fluid check every 2nd week or so, but at least they get a full check over on the hoist every 10k.
Post by: dazzler on October 05, 2014, 08:37:58 AM
15k to 20k Service intervals are fine on newer stuff (low km) or owners that look after and monitor their vehicles. Most car owners never check anything, they get it serviced and the bonnet doesn't get opened again until the next service and that sometimes is overdue. 15,000km is a longtime for something to go unchecked on a car that's getting on in its life. I wander around my mates workshop and see all the cars with terminal problems due to issues going unchecked for too long.
I've got 3 cars in the driveway that are all close too or over the 300,000km mark. I do oil and filter in my old 5L powered Hilux every 5K as per the book. Z9 filters are only $5ea and oil changes in these old diesels are crucial to their longevity.
The NM Pajero and BA Egas Falcon get done every 10k in lieu of the books 15k with full syn oils. They all get a fluid check every 2nd week or so, but at least they get a full check over on the hoist every 10k.
Well said.
Post by: V8CRSA on October 05, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
If you are so concerned about changing oil so often, why not get an oil sample down and find out what condition the oil is in after 5000k and then again at 10000k. If not changing the oil t same a few $$$ then testing the oil and knowing you can go till at least 10000k is gunna save even more.
I work in a major truck dealer ship and see all sorts coming in through our workshop, we do a lot of oil testing for customers and oils are nearly always still within spec at the recommended change km's.
There is such a thing as over servicing.
Matt
Post by: Jasjul on October 05, 2014, 10:10:31 AM
So you spend your hard earn'd on clean new oil and then it goes into a old dirty filter that just contaminates your new oil...........
Just wasting money if you ask me,I don't know of any manufacturer that recommends that ?
Matt
Honda do. My wife has a new Honda Civic, the service book says filter only every 2nd service. I wasn't happy with that and made them do it every service.
Post by: RebsWA on October 05, 2014, 01:35:44 PM
Post by: shanegtr on October 05, 2014, 02:22:16 PM
Not something I would do, most engine wear occurs when the engine is cold. You want to warm it up as quickly as possible to minimize wear.
I run my vehicle for about 5min every morning before driving it and idles a lot when camping. So even though it's 5000km on the clock the engine has done more.
Post by: KeithB on October 07, 2014, 02:22:00 AM
Couldn't sleep so I got trawling and found this on the LCOOL website. I do hope I haven't breached anyone's copyright. But this man seems to know about oils and recommends 5,000 km oil changes.
Keith
Oil Recommendation for a 200TTD
OK so I am not a tribologist (oil scientist) but I do know a bit about oils, mainly from reading technical articles and from many years of racing cars and bikes, and always wanting to make sure I am using the best solution without wasting money that could be spent on something else. I also know a bit about marketing and as you will see later, this is how most people choose their oil.
In the following notes, I have made reference to specific brands – this is purely for example purposes, all the big oil companies have comparative oils.
In Case You Don’t Want to Read a Long Article
I recommend that you use one of the fleet diesel oils eg
• BP Vanellus C6 Golbal Plus
• Shell Rimula R3X
• Mobil Delvac MX
These are designed for use across a mixed fleet of diesel vehicles, including heavy duty turbo charged trucks, earth-moving equipment, 4wds and even petrol vehicles. Their technical specs are way above anything recommended by Toyota and they are nearly as cheap as the cheapest supermarket no-name oils. The only disadvantage is that the smallest size you can easily find is 20l.
I also recommend you change your oil at 5,000kms.
Why Do We Buy Particular Oils?
Why do you buy the oil you buy? How do you know which is the best? The answer in most cases is marketing. Way back when I was young we thought Castrol GTX was magic, now we see all the ads and sponsorship for Mobil1 – it must be cool right? Sure Mobil1 is really good oil but good for what and at what price? How does Castrol GTX diesel compare to a fleet oil you may never have heard of? Why does your mechanic/dealer recommend a particular oil – try asking them sometime - ask them about:
1. The oil’s ability to meet the required viscosity grade of the application.
2. The oil’s ability to maintain a constant viscosity when exposed to changes in temperature.
3. The oil’s ability to retain its viscosity during use.
4. The oil’s ability to resist shearing forces and maintain its viscosity at elevated temperatures.
5. The oil’s zinc content.
6. The oil’s ability to minimize general wear.
7. The oil’s ability to minimize gear wear.
8. The oil’s ability to minimize deterioration when exposed to elevated temperatures.
9. The oil’s ability to resist volatilization when exposed to elevated temperatures.
10. The oil’s ability to maintain engine cleanliness and control acid corrosion.
11. The oil’s ability to resist foaming.
12. The oil’s ability to control rust corrosion.
OK so the chances are they won’t have a clue – if they do – listen to them!
If they don’t, that’s OK, they are just like 99% of the population and in most cases what they are recommending is just fine and will not hurt your engine, it is just not the most cost effective solution. There are very few “bad oils” available anymore and as long as you change it regularly, you shouldn’t have a problem.
So Who Buys Oil Based on Performance Not Marketing Spin?
Consider an open cut mine or a big transport company. They may use thousands of litres of oil a month and not only is the cost of the oil a big deal but so is the comparative engine protection. The right oil could save millions of dollars in maintenance.
These guys don’t buy oil based on who sponsors a V8 race team, they need to understand performance. You don’t just dump several thousand dollars worth of oil because it has done 10,000kms, maybe you can get 20,000kms or maybe it needs changing after only 100 hours, the way you find out is to regularly test it. Rather than just change on schedule, you regularly send a small sample of oil off to a test lab and get a report back that gives details of its condition.
This is eMonitors report – I don’t have their permission to use it but I am sure they wouldn’t mind the free advertising. There are plenty of other oil test labs out there.
http://www.e-monitor.com.au/SamplePDFReport.pdf (http://www.e-monitor.com.au/SamplePDFReport.pdf)
If one oil breaks down quicker than another, guess which one you buy next time.
Luckily for us, we don’t need to do this – if a fleet oil didn’t stack up in real life tests it wouldn’t survive in the market place so all the major oil company fleet oils are way better than anything a 200TTD would need.
Why Are They So Cheap?
So if these fleet oils are so good, how come they are so cheap? Part of this is the because you are buying in bulk but mainly it is because the brand name oils carriy so much in advertising costs.
Personally I don’t get any gratification from using the same oil as Craig Lowndes, or Mark Skaife or whomever, but if you want to use Mobil 1 Synthetic Diesel Oil that has a CJ rating – go right ahead. If you are changing oils at 5,000kms it probably won’t give you any better protection than a general fleet oil.
What About Service Station Oils?
Nothing wrong with them except they are overpriced for their specs. This is an oversimplified comparison but it serves as an illustration.
Oil/API rating/Price per litre
Shell Helix Diesel/ CF/ $6.50 (10l at SuperCheap Autos)
Shell Rimula R3X/ CH/ $6.50 (10l at SuperCheap Autos)
Shell Rimula R3X/ CH/ $4.50 (20l at Elders)
The API rating is only one metric but I have used it for simplicity. CF is the absolute minimum I would put in an engine and the pure hi-tech synthetics are rated at CJ. CH is really good stuff.
The price per litre is based on a quick Google search.
You Want to Know More About Oil?
Spend the rest of your life reading in this forum!
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/)
What do I Use?
I have a 200TTD, two Yamaha WR250F dirt bikes, a Kawasaki Z900 road bike, a Yamaha 100 outboard, a Yamaha 9.9 outboard, a Honda generator, a ride-on mower, and a wood chipper. They are all running on BP Vanellus C6 Golbal Plus, because it is easy to pick up 20L at our local truck stop.
Yours truly in tribology!
_________________
Mike C
200 GXL TTD 08 model, TJM bullbar, Snorkel, Polyairs, Redarc battery relay.
Post by: Bullant4x4 on October 07, 2014, 06:07:07 AM
Post by: dazzler on October 07, 2014, 07:21:04 AM
Though manufacturers specify a certain viscosity for a reason.