MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: D4D on March 09, 2014, 12:36:41 PM
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Myswag promotes itself as a family forum and as such the posted content should be reflective of that. I'm all for having a laugh but there are currently a few posts I don't believe fit with the family nature of this forum. Without getting the mods involved let's think twice before we post something we wouldn't want our partners/kids to see.
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Very good point,couldn't agree more.
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Fair point, timely reminder
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X2
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What have you done now Scarps.! can't leave you alone for five mins ;D
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........
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Was too & 3
Don't read the flavour description in the Carp posts :cup:
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Myswag promotes itself as a family forum and as such the posted content should be reflective of that. I'm all for having a laugh but there are currently a few posts I don't believe fit with the family nature of this forum. Without getting the mods involved let's think twice before we post something we wouldn't want our partners/kids to see.
It was my nigella shot right? Like, it's not to EVERYONE's taste I know......
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It was my nigella shot right? Like, it's not to EVERYONE's taste I know......
You've spelt anyone's wrong ;)
Sent from your iPad using Mental telepathy
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Myswag promotes itself as a family forum and as such the posted content should be reflective of that. I'm all for having a laugh but there are currently a few posts I don't believe fit with the family nature of this forum. Without getting the mods involved let's think twice before we post something we wouldn't want our partners/kids to see.
Agree D4D. Some of the current discussions are not for this forum I reckon.
KB
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Im pretty sure he moderators will ,,,errrrrrrrr,, moderate when things get too feral just like they have previously even pg rated movies allow the 'f'bomb these days
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Im pretty sure he moderators will ,,,errrrrrrrr,, moderate when things get too feral just like they have previously even pg rated movies allow the 'f'bomb these days
Just because its on TV doesn't mean its right though, a few things have popped up lately that probably fall outside of what Id like my kids to read about.
Cheers,
Disco teddy
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I think that this forum runs itself a lot and the moderators only step in when really needed. If there is something you are not happy with please hit the "report to moderator" button on most thread page.
Self moderation is the easy, re-read what you type before hitting send and make sure that you are happy what you type and whether you would actually convey that face to face.
GG
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Thanks D4D, agreed.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Myswag promotes itself as a family forum and as such the posted content should be reflective of that. I'm all for having a laugh but there are currently a few posts I don't believe fit with the family nature of this forum. Without getting the mods involved let's think twice before we post something we wouldn't want our partners/kids to see.
Totally agree..
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Is it just me or has there been some pretty full on posts lately by members I've never heard of before
gordo350
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I agree we should keep it clean
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Is it just me or has there been some pretty full on posts lately by members I've never heard of before
gordo350
i wouldn't go so far as to blame just the new members, but i have noticed some of the bad language being written on here at times by posters is getting more common IMHO. i work on building sites and have done so for over 20 years, so am prone to use of quite a few profanities in my general conversation, but i do try and watch what i type on forums like this one that are more family based.
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Can't say I've ever seen anything on here that I wouldn't let my young'uns read, saying that, there is some pretty weird and wonderful stuff on the net you can get caught with via the most innocent searches these days.
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Talk about giving a man a conscience. I just spend 10min going through my posts lol
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Talk about giving a man a conscience. I just spend 10min going through my posts lol
And how many did yor conscience edit ;D ;D
KB
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And how many did yor conscience edit ;D ;D
KB
2. ;D ;D ;D
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i wouldn't go so far as to blame just the new members, but i have noticed some of the bad language being written on here at times by posters is getting more common IMHO.
x2
I swear as much as anyone I know but I don't see the need to post this in threads to get my message across and I don't see how spelling a word incorrectly makes any difference to the intent.
Starting to feel like UHF40
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..... If there is something you are not happy with please hit the "report to moderator" button on most thread page....
Agree with that.
It should all be attended to quietly, in the background......
:cheers:
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Agree with that.
I should all be attended to quietly, in the background......
:cheers:
Nah . stocks and tomatoes like the good old days. >:D
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Nah . stocks and tomatoes like the good old days. >:D
;D ;D
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Im pretty sure he moderators will ,,,errrrrrrrr,, moderate when things get too feral just like they have previously even pg rated movies allow the 'f'bomb these days
Why should it be left to us maintain basic human standards???
If people would self moderate it would make our lives much easier. We are not paid to maintain the standard of the site and as such do not monitior the site 24/7 to make sure people use decnet language and inuendos, we are all volunteers with lives.
People need to take ownership of their own actions.
And I agree, there are a few individuals lately.........some that have been here a long time.........who seam to be deliberatly pushing the boundaries
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:-X :-X :-X :-X
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For me, there are too many people with the attitude, I'm right and your wrong mentality. Someone makes a valid argument / point / question causing someone ( read sub intelligent) to go into attack dog mode, due to said attack dog not having the brain cell required to intelligently respond. Block the trouble makers IP addresses.
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For me, there are too many people with the attitude, I'm right and your wrong mentality. Someone makes a valid argument / point / question causing someone ( read sub intelligent) to go into attack dog mode, due to said attack dog not having the brain cell required to intelligently respond. Block the trouble makers IP addresses.
Yes, but you are wrong. >:D
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I like the site and appreciate the effort of those who moderate it and keep it going. I have also been surprised as Ive been spending more time here lately.
From my experience on a few other forums, I have found moderators can be very successful at shaping the 'culture' of what is acceptable, which filters through to most users. Of course you cant keep every one happy all the time. But that is not the aim of the site,(keeping everyone happy) its about sharing information and experiences to promote a common interest. While some people might get their nose out of joint (or leave) when asked to adjust their behaviour, I personally think that is favourable to others being offended or leaving because of others bad behaviour.
It is easy to get carried away in the relatively anonymous world of the internet, before posting I try to ask my self if I would send this message to my Mum or Dad, or my niece, or my boss. If not, It probably shouldn't be posted on the net.
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Matt noted: It is easy to get carried away in the relatively anonymous world of the internet, before posting I try to ask myself if I would send this message to my Mum or Dad, or my niece, or my boss. If not, It probably shouldn't be posted on the net.
Probably a good standard to work to.
To be fair, I don't recall posts on here that used offensive language (but I don't read all posts).
The thing I like most about MySwag is that discussions of what we might call adult subjects (and nothing to do with camping/outdoor life) carry on WITHOUT the sudden censorship that is applied on other forums.
There are broad issues in this nation that affect us all and it's good to see them raised here from time to time in a rational manner. And, after all, we're all big boys and girls now, surely?
I AM NOT defending profanity or personal attacks on posters, but there's no harm in a robust exchange of views so long as it is conducted in a civilised manner.
Cheers, Tony
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x2
I swear as much as anyone I know but I don't see the need to post this in threads to get my message across and I don't see how spelling a word incorrectly makes any difference to the intent.
Starting to feel like UHF40
Yep no need for it here.
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Matt noted: It is easy to get carried away in the relatively anonymous world of the internet, before posting I try to ask myself if I would send this message to my Mum or Dad, or my niece, or my boss. If not, It probably shouldn't be posted on the net.
Probably a good standard to work to.
To be fair, I don't recall posts on here that used offensive language (but I don't read all posts).
The thing I like most about MySwag is that discussions of what we might call adult subjects (and nothing to do with camping/outdoor life) carry on WITHOUT the sudden censorship that is applied on other forums.
There are broad issues in this nation that affect us all and it's good to see them raised here from time to time in a rational manner. And, after all, we're all big boys and girls now, surely?
I AM NOT defending profanity or personal attacks on posters, but there's no harm in a robust exchange of views so long as it is conducted in a civilised manner.
Cheers, Tony
I know one EXPLORingtravel related OZ forum that doesn't even allow "WTF"...
hope this place never gets that sad.. but without an example of what the OP is discussing, its hard to know whats too far and whats not.
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It is pretty obvious what too far is on this forum and any post that goes too far will be deleted. If that raises the ire of those that would push the line then tough, and after due warning, they continue will be given a yellow. If that still bites then they get a red, chow.
That's how we roll. :cheers:
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I know one EXPLORingtravel related OZ forum that doesn't even allow "WTF"...
hope this place never gets that sad.. but without an example of what the OP is discussing, its hard to know whats too far and whats not.
WTF on its own I have no issues with.
the stuff that is really getting to me lately is the stuff relating to sexuality (hetro and homo) including "prison assumptions" as well as the racism that seams to be creaping in at an astonishing rate. Posts AND pictures
After all, this is STILL a family orientated forum, we are pretty easy going and not overly moderated but as Snow has pointed out, our patience with deleting said posts is wearing thin.
some has asked.....Would I show my parents or kids what I have written? Would I write it in public and stand by it? if the answer is no to either of these........its simple, dont press post.
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but without an example of what the OP is discussing, its hard to know whats too far and whats not.
Some of the posts in the Schapelle thread that have since been deleted
Here's one that is still live
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35597.msg569737#msg569737 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35597.msg569737#msg569737)
the stuff that is really getting to me lately is the stuff relating to sexuality (hetro and homo) including "prison assumptions" as well as the racism that seams to be creaping in at an astonishing rate.
Exactly
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Here's one that is still livehttp://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35597.msg569737#msg569737 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35597.msg569737#msg569737)
nothing in that thread that numerous others haven't said or posted ???
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nothing in that thread that numerous others haven't said or posted ???
Thanks for editing the post Lost, you are getting the picture now. :cup:
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I think it should be left to the moderators and administrators to decide what moral standards to uphold, not the general population.
Sure everyone is entitled to their opinion but just because one or a few people think somethings crossed the line for children to see doesn't mean the majority agree. Its just an opinion based on a persons moral standards imho so click the 'report to moderators' button and let them deal with it. If your not happy with the way they choose to run the place then don't participate or don't allow your wife/partner/kids to read it ;)
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I think some people would be terrified with what 8yr old kids know and say these days with the interwebs... language and more.. I know my 14yr old knows more than I did when I was 25 about the world and girls and things.
I know my mates son who is 9 had his parents called to the school for teaching other kids about bondage just from what he finds on from a google search... ???
I think what Danny is saying is what may offend you may not offend others.
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I think what Danny is saying is what may offend you may not offend others.
Hence the reason why we would generally send an email or a PM when a post that requires it has been moderated. This way the people involved can learn what is and is not acceptable
However, when the same people continue to offend.............................
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I think it's very simple of the "scale" of what might offend. Consider this..
We have 10000's of Members.. A large number with children, and different views..
If you are writing something, i would always work under the assumption that someone that DOES NOT have the same views as me is going to read it. Therefore if there is a likely chance it "MIGHT" offend someone it probably will.
I have a simple attitude to forums (and life in general)... If it's NOT adding value to a topic or thread, it's NOT worth saying.
It's really that simple. If you're not adding value (i.e being helpful, enjoying a topic, making a simple joke) then don't say it.
Feel free to use the PM system, if you want to say something and feel it might be misread on the forum.
I love the openness of the forum, and the great conversations people have, just be mindful everyone thinks differently and the preference to not going around being negative, and being offensive.
To previous comments about the Mod team doing clean up's..
I DISLIKE removing threads. People need to be mindful of what you are writing. This is NOT a place for keyboard warriors! If the mod team had to try and clean up after everyone that would be a full-time job for 2-3 people, do we really want to try and raise that type of money! Nope..
As some would say..
Think before you post!
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A timely reminder.
Sometimes I get a bit caught up in the forum. I have met a number of members here and have shared a joke with them in person. Sometimes I need to remind myself this isn't Facebook, so what I say is to 14000 members, not just the 5 or 6 people I am "friends" with on FB. So the head has been pulled back in and hopefully I never get one of those PMs from the mods!
:cheers:
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The days of homophobia being seen as 'acceptable' in any context should be considered G O N E.
Aside from the several openly homosexual members who are active participants on the forum, there would no doubt be many who have not disclosed their preferences. I would imagine that both groups would find the homophobic posts hurtful and exclusionary. Can't imagine that such posts from forum members would encourage these members to participate in forum catch-ups either. No doubt, like me, most 'straight' swaggers just find such posts an embarrassment.
Lots of helpful people on the forum, however there can be a tendency to 'redneck' as 'normal' among a loud but small minority. Sad but true.
And yes, I do get irony / tongue in cheek as a concept - but don't think it excuses in this context.
Will be interesting to see how long it takes for me to be abused for being 'politically correct' / 'pinkwashed' for posting this.
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I am glad that the forum is having an open discussion on this subject.
Originally I frequented a different oz camping forum, but found a few members were doing the majority of the posting and what they had to say was usually negatively aggressive towards to OP (usually making the OP feel silly for asking such a basic question) and were aggressive to anyone who ventured to have a different opinion, the result being that many people stopped bothering to post, the OPs original question would go unanswered and the thread would go off topic and not return. The case of a few ruining it for the many. That site is now heavily moderated, I can only guess that it was to try stamp out the above behavior and try keep it a community focused site.
Because of the behavior at the above mentioned site, I chose to quietly move on (I did not bring any particular posts to the attention of the moderator, what was the point? the forum was full of similar posts)
When I found myswag (maybe four years ago now) I found it to be great, everyone was easy going, conflict happened rarely and usually was sorted out by the people involved fairly quickly without the need for intervention, I was floored by the difference between the two forums, apart from the theme of camping and 4WDs the two forums were as different as night and day. And to this day I find the majority of the members still enjoy the same feeling of enjoying a discussion, sharing their knowledge and the friendly atmosphere this forum has radiated.
However, in the past 6 months or so I have noticed an increased level of agitation within the forum, more people attacking others for having different points of view, making jokes at the expense of other members, language that would surely take more effort to type than not type and the posting of topics that just dont belong on this forum (not everything has to be camping related, we all enjoy discussing a variety of topics. but come on, use some common sense in what you post.)
Remember the moderators do this because they enjoy what they do, what happens when they stop enjoying it?
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Self regulation at work:
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35777.0 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35777.0)
:)
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The days of homophobia being seen as 'acceptable' in any context should be considered G O N E.
Aside from the several openly homosexual members who are active participants on the forum, there would no doubt be many who have not disclosed their preferences. I would imagine that both groups would find the homophobic posts hurtful and exclusionary. Can't imagine that such posts from forum members would encourage these members to participate in forum catch-ups either. No doubt, like me, most 'straight' swaggers just find such posts an embarrassment.
Lots of helpful people on the forum, however there can be a tendency to 'redneck' as 'normal' among a loud but small minority. Sad but true.
And yes, I do get irony / tongue in cheek as a concept - but don't think it excuses in this context.
Will be interesting to see how long it takes for me to be abused for being 'politically correct' / 'pinkwashed' for posting this.
Very accurate and well said.
I get rather annoyed when people post racist / homophobic and nationalistic pride posts with no substance or evidence as to why they think that way.
Sometimes I think there is a time for people to move on, particularly once the percentage of their posts are heavily in the non CT threads.
Strangely we seem to be becoming more red neck as the years go by.
:D
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Self regulation at work:
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35777.0 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35777.0)
:)
You clever sod!
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G’day folks,
I really thought this thread was serious, however, after spending several hours perusing numerous threads on this forum, past as well as present. I have to laugh at the hypocrisy on this thread by those whingeing. lol
Some of these folks over the last twelve months have been extremely inflammatory and derogatory to various individuals across our mainstream society. ( i just love the false virtue, lol ) Typically the person who goes to church but does not believe in god or the person who is vegetarians on a moral basis but however, likes to where a wear leather jackets and leather boots. lol
PS, as a former soldier, I have no time for hypocrites!
Regards,
RLI
:cheers:
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G’day folks,
I really thought this thread was serious, however, after spending several hours perusing numerous threads on this forum, past as well as present. I have to laugh at the hypocrisy on this thread by those whingeing. lol
Some of these folks over the last twelve months have been extremely inflammatory and derogatory to various individuals across our mainstream society. ( i just love the false virtue, lol ) Typically the person who goes to church but does not believe in god or the person who is vegetarians on a moral basis but however, likes to where a wear leather jackets and leather boots. lol
PS, as a former soldier, I have no time for hypocrites!
Regards,
RLI
:cheers:
Take this how you like, but as someone who is relatively new around here you seem to have quite a lot to say........just saying. >:D
The way I look at this type of thing is if you are doing nothing wrong then there is nothing to worry about. If on the other hand maybe just maybe some of your posts(not directed at you at all RLI just everyone in general) on reflection could be seen as a little offensive to whoever :angel:, next time you're posting keep that in mind and be mindful of the others that may read what you are typing. I am myself no angel, but I always try to put myself in someone else's shoes when I check what I've typed.
It's not as some would say being "Politically Correct" either........it's about "Respecting" others especially the kids.
Dave
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G’day folks,
I really thought this thread was serious, however, after spending several hours perusing numerous threads on this forum, past as well as present. I have to laugh at the hypocrisy on this thread by those whingeing. lol
Some of these folks over the last twelve months have been extremely inflammatory and derogatory to various individuals across our mainstream society. ( i just love the false virtue, lol ) Typically the person who goes to church but does not believe in god or the person who is vegetarians on a moral basis but however, likes to where a wear leather jackets and leather boots. lol
PS, as a former soldier, I have no time for hypocrites!
Regards,
RLI
:cheers:
Agreed.... Apart from the former soldier bit as I'm not :)
Sent from the machine that goes..... Bing!
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ok,
so jumping in here.. This is a Serious thread.
There has been discussion behind the forum within the mods team about members and the general feeling/posts of a few...
Please keep the thread on topic. This is a great place for people to share advice.... (not criticise each other)
A few PM's have been sent already...
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Just because some things have slipped under the radar in the past, does not mean that it is acceptable now or in the future.
This thread is about what is acceptable, not the past.
Swearing, missed spelt swearing and even abbreviations I don't believe are acceptable on a family based forum.
Most people can get their point across without this type of language.
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PS, as a former soldier, I have no time for hypocrites!
What does being a former soldier have to do with anything?
And how does that equate to hypocrites?
Seems a strange dichotomy.
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I got to Google this one..."dichotomy".. ;D
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I hope that we don't get too precious with the language. While it's hard to see some words ever having an appropriate use in polite conversation there are other words that can convey concepts better than any alternative.
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The content is heading upwards and onwards and I learnt a new work today and once I'd googled it, it turned out to be not what I was thinking..... 8)
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I got to Google this one..."dichotomy".. ;D
it's a goody hey!
I want to use capricious one day. A favourite of Christopher Hitchens one of my all time bestest orators.
Bestest. LOL
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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it's a goody hey!
I want to use capricious one day. A favourite of Christopher Hitchens one of my all time bestest orators.
Bestest. LOL
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Can you please speak English.... i got no idea what your on about.. ;D
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What does being a former soldier have to do with anything?
And how does that equate to hypocrites?
Seems a strange dichotomy.
Integrity of the highest standard, and not accepting anything under that standard....easy that one ;D ;D ;D
Swanny
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Integrity of the highest standard, and not accepting anything under that standard....easy that one ;D ;D ;D
Swanny
That may define the organisation and its values however that does not automatically transfer to the employee.
The ADF is like all employers. It has good, bad and indifferent employees. Our occupations do not define who we are or strengthen our argument unless the specialist skills obtained through that employment are directly applicable to the conversation.
If we were talking about climate change and I was a scientist then mentioning that would be of value and support my arguments. If we are talking diesel engines then I would probably say "as a mechanic".
Thats kind of what I was suggesting.
:D
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Thought I'd throw a little bit of pshycology into the discussion.
Interesting read here:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/10/the-psychology-of-online-comments.html
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Thought I'd throw a little bit of pshycology into the discussion.
Interesting read here:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/10/the-psychology-of-online-comments.html (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/10/the-psychology-of-online-comments.html)
That was a very interesting read, thankyou for posting that Scarps.
I found myself nodding along as I read through the article.
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That may define the organisation and its values however that does not automatically transfer to the employee.
The ADF is like all employers. Im sorry but not even close, when was the last time Coles asked an employee to head over to the Ghan, and sell a few loafs of bread ?
It has good, bad and indifferent employees. Fair call, but majority are good, apposed to my experience at present (8 years now a civie) where most are slugs,
Our occupations do not define who we are or strengthen our argument unless the specialist skills obtained through that employment are directly applicable to the conversation. He questioned hypocrisy. Being a member of the Defence Force requires the highest standards of integrity, perhaps not a skill, but defiantly a value, which I might add is sadly over looked in some parts of society today, which was applicable in his response.
If we were talking about climate change and I was a scientist then mentioning that would be of value and support my arguments. If we are talking diesel engines then I would probably say "as a mechanic".
Thats kind of what I was suggesting.
:D
Not arguing just retorting...!!!
Swanny
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That was a very interesting read, thankyou for posting that Scarps.
I found myself nodding along as I read through the article.
thnx Lori, ocassionally some of my posts can make sense:-)
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PS, as a former soldier, I have no time for hypocrites!
You might want to have a look in the mirror.
Here's a quick compilation of your posts with 'topical' language. Not bad for the short time you've been a member.
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570964#msg570964 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570964#msg570964)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570966#msg570966 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570966#msg570966)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571041#msg571041 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571041#msg571041)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571584#msg571584 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571584#msg571584)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35756.msg571709#msg571709 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35756.msg571709#msg571709)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35757.msg571720#msg571720 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35757.msg571720#msg571720)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572185#msg572185 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572185#msg572185)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572234#msg572234 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572234#msg572234)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=29109.msg572966#msg572966 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=29109.msg572966#msg572966)
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........
It should all be attended to quietly, in the background......
........
I rest my case.......
To be clear, I'm not referring to any one particular post or poster, but it saddens me to see the level and tone that the thread has taken.
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Fair call, but majority are good, apposed to my experience at present (8 years now a civie) where most are slugs
Mate, if you're meeting that many "slugs" I think you need to move in some different circles.
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You might want to have a look in the mirror.
Here's a quick compilation of your posts with 'topical' language. Not bad for the short time you've been a member.
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570964#msg570964 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570964#msg570964)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570966#msg570966 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg570966#msg570966)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571041#msg571041 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571041#msg571041)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571584#msg571584 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35682.msg571584#msg571584)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35756.msg571709#msg571709 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35756.msg571709#msg571709)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35757.msg571720#msg571720 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35757.msg571720#msg571720)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572185#msg572185 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572185#msg572185)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572234#msg572234 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=35779.msg572234#msg572234)
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=29109.msg572966#msg572966 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=29109.msg572966#msg572966)
PMSL
If it really upsets you that much, why not use a PM, or better still, arrange a meet and say it to his face?
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but it saddens me to see the level and tone that the thread has taken.
its truly ironic that a thread with this subject heading turns in such a direction
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PMSL
If it really upsets you that much, why not use a PM, or better still, arrange a meet and say it to his face?
:cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: