MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: DaveR on February 11, 2014, 05:27:00 PM
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Hi swaggers
I have a bit of a battle on my hands thanks to a poorly made product which cost me time and money from an Aussie company which is Aussie owned.
These folks are clever enough to not put anything in writing, but I have been using emails for all correspondence.
How dose a bloke who knows nothing about layers etc go about asking for a bit of advice?
Also.
How best to record phone conversations, as this particular bloke says it all over the phone, and promises everything, but wont say it on emails.
Thanks
Dave
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Try the ACCC
http://www.accc.gov.au/ (http://www.accc.gov.au/)
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Give your local University a call. I know here in Newcastle they run free legal drop-in events (on the beach... ;D).
Oh, and be VERY careful with recording voice conversations.
Regardless of promises or even written warranties and guarantees, products must be fit-for-purpose and there are a bunch of 'reasonableness' criteria applied to products. You should be able to find details on one of the Australian consumer affairs type websites.
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Start here:
http://www.qld.gov.au/law/your-rights/consumer-rights-complaints-and-scams/ (http://www.qld.gov.au/law/your-rights/consumer-rights-complaints-and-scams/)
http://www.legalaid.qld.gov.au/legalinformation/gettinglegalassistance/Pages/Where-to-get-help.aspx (http://www.legalaid.qld.gov.au/legalinformation/gettinglegalassistance/Pages/Where-to-get-help.aspx)
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/Content.aspx?doc=questions_complaints/qld.htm (http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/Content.aspx?doc=questions_complaints/qld.htm)
:cheers:
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Hi mate. Look up legal aid Qld. They helped me on a matter about 5 years ago and I am glad I called them. They did everything and charged me nothing. It was awesome.
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Thanks Folks, some light reading for me tonight.
Oldmate
Remember the day when we met, that is my trouble, not with the Dills in that shop, but the maker.
Getting my online social media bombardment plan ready to fall back on if I have to. Just have to learn how to use Twitface etc etc to do it....
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If all else fails, go US style ;D
(http://blkmav.com/images/357.jpg)
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If all else fails, go US style ;D
(http://blkmav.com/images/357.jpg)
Hell yeah..........
I reckon this is the place to start!!!!
I don't know either side of the story, but I'm aussie so I'll back my "myswag" mates anyday........ :cheers:
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What!!!!
Now I got to go learn how to use a gun as well. Busy few days.
I would dearly love to give details of it, you lot won't believe it, but anyway, shall leave it for another time.
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Call a few suburban lawyers up and ask for their rates. If you just want advice it won't cost as much as you think to just get 30 or 60 minutes of their time.
Legal advise like anything else, you get what you pay for and nothing is free.
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Hi DaveR,
Others have given you a good places to start, Department of Fair Trading or state equivalent. A product must be fit for purpose, if not it must be fixed or refund given. Fair Trading are there to protect consumer's rights and will give you free legal advise and take the ball up for you if required.
regards
Drenno
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Thanks Folks, some light reading for me tonight.
Oldmate
Remember the day when we met, that is my trouble, not with the Dills in that shop, but the maker.
Getting my online social media bombardment plan ready to fall back on if I have to. Just have to learn how to use Twitface etc etc to do it....
I do remember that day brings back great memories ;D ;D ;D
Yeah I do recall you were not happy that day.
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Hi Dave
Without naming anyone why not post the basis of your complaint. there are some wise heads on myswag that may be able to help. I would only look at a lawyer if the issue has cost you many thousands otherwise good money after bad.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Hi Dave
Without naming anyone why not post the basis of your complaint. there are some wise heads on myswag that may be able to help. I would only look at a lawyer if the issue has cost you many thousands otherwise good money after bad.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sound advice ..are we talking about a vehicle modification or accessory that due to poor design or instillation may have rendered your car un-roadworthy. I always find that if you can find a bigger army to fight your enemy then that's a sound way to go.
Years ago i had big dramas with a gas installation in car. long storey short i managed to get onto the regulative authority(Dept Mines and energy) sent them a letter saying I felt unsafe in my car with my family. I sent it registered post with signature required and explained that if my family blew up because of the poor workmanship I would if I survived seek to expose the fact that it had been reported to them . 24hrs later issue resolved. I had been arguing with installer for 6 weeks. Tried letters paid for legal ect. Just find a bigger dog looking to justify their budget.
Jet ;D ;D
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Hi DaveR,
Others have given you a good places to start, Department of Fair Trading or state equivalent. A product must be fit for purpose, if not it must be fixed or refund given. Fair Trading are there to protect consumer's rights and will give you free legal advise and take the ball up for you if required.
regards
Drenno
Agree on contacting your office of fair trading to lodge a complaint. Australian Consumer Law (ACL) has very strict guideline that traders must abide by.
Office of fair trading will not give you legal advice but can help you in other ways.
I would say they should be your fiest port of call if the trader is unwilling to help.
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Not so,much legal advice but name and shame (or even threats of) has worked for me in the past.
I once threatened a salesman that I would setup out on the road in front of the shop with the item and signs telling all how well I was looked after. Before I got back to my car the manager was bending over backwards to help.
With facebook, twitter etc nowadays bad service can really hurt. Just make sure you do so carefully or it could backfire.
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Here are some details, hard to make it brief, War and Peace it is.
Car broken down and needs repairs, not drivable. Clutch has failed, 4cyl 4wd.
I am a qualified Mechanic, who has been out of the game for some time, still on the spanners but different field.
Dismantle car to find cause of fault, found it is a failed flywheel; these are a 2 part arrangement called a “Dual Mass Flywheel”. They have a fluid between the 2 sections which have dodgy seals that tend to give way.
I then sort through car parts shops for product and price over the phone.
Found well known car parts supplier who can get the parts in few days.
Parts value of $1,350.
Quotes for labor from various local mechanics varied from $490 – 620, I did consider sending the car to someone, but decided to save a few $.
Fit the parts and test drive, lasted 12 k’s then the car brakes down.
This is the difficult bit, the cause of the brake down is unlikely to be caused by the clutch or the flywheel.
A long saga of fault diagnosis began, which included mobile mechanics to come out with their diagnosis equipment to plug into the vehicle to interrogate faults.
Now this car was 1 of the 1st with common rail diesel fuel injection, this means the systems on this engine are somewhat lacking compared to the newer cars.
A very long episode of fault checks begun, plus me having to be home to be there for the mobile mechanics to show up.
It took 3 weeks of checks to find the new flywheel had damaged a sensor which reads the crankshaft position.
I removed the gear box and flywheel to find it had been fitted correctly and must have been made wrong. There was damage to the back of the engine and the sensor.
Contact with the cars parts shop was of little help, the manager did not know what side of the flywheel he was looking at.
I made contact with the maker, got from them the CAD Drawing and the specs for a measurement and checked this against the flywheel I removed and found an extra millimeter which has caused the damage to the back of the engine and gouged the sensor.
Immediate they sprung into action and re-called all of the flywheels about the country which had been made.
(Love to know how many were fitted)
A new flywheel had to be made and then sent to me with a new clutch etc.
Got this fitted with the new sensor and the car is now running well.
The hours of time I spent on this car fault finding is well over 80 hours.
Isuzu engineers failed to include a fault code in the system which gives notice of a flywheel making contact and destroying the crankshaft sensor, funny that…
At the time of discussions about the supply of the replacement kit, I was asked by the maker about any other vehicles I own which are manual, which I said Yes, the troopy.
I was told OK, we can give you a top of the line clutch kit which normally retails for about $900 delivered to my door for about $300 + to compensate you for your time.
At the time that seemed reasonable but as my hands were full trying to get the car on the road, I wasn’t ready to deal with that.
With the car on the road again, I made contact about the supply of the L/C clutch kit by email, and answer came with in minutes asking what model. I replied with the details, and then, nothing for many days. Replied again and still nothing.
Then sent a lengthy email about this to multiple email addresses in the same company.
Got a weird email saying:
Hi Dave,
Mate your last couple of emails I wasn’t totally understanding you requirements if you want a cost of the l/cruiser clutch just let me know and I will go further
Kind Regards,
Then a phone call followed which I got before seeing the email, having a go at me as the head office was all over him about this.
Good.
I said, I want some details of the offer again, as I don’t recall exactly what it was you offered.
A new bit of info was given over the phone, the trade price for the clutch kit is $600 +, but for you it will be $360.
I had already found more than 1 supplier of the exact same clutch kit, made by the same folk. Some of these suppliers are Evilbay, 1 had a 1800 phone number.
The price I found, delivered with full warranty to my door was $448.00.
Made by the same folk, same item.
I replied to this chap, giving details of a clutch kit being available for the price of $448.00 and your offer of a $90 saving dose not cover my approx $250 out of pocket expenses, not my time and hard ship I went thorough over this wrong flywheel caper.
This gent will not give details by email, and will only speak over the phone.
He has sent an email asking me to call.
I want him to give details by email.
I also, asked if he is not the man to deal with in such matters, to please put me onto someone else.
I have at all times been polite with these folk, even though they messed me around with the delivery dates etc etc.
Bit of an ordeal, but there you have it
I am only out of pocket about $250 at this time. Plus a huge amount of time. Plus inconvenience of the wife's car not working for 5 weeks.
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I'll give these folks a chance to respond appropriately. If no satisfaction, I shall act upon some of the good info you Kind Swaggers have given.
Well, perhaps not the Gun idea.....
Thanks
Dave
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Very interesting.
If I am reading this correctly the part had been manufactured incorrectly, you fitted it in good faith, and it wrecked the sensor.
The supplier has then provided a correct part and replaced the damaged sensor and it has been fitted and all good.
On top of this they have offered you another clutch for your other vehicle which you have accepted.
There is now an argument about the value of the clutch offered.
If this is correct then from a legal perspective it is game over. They have met their obligations of the contract (supply of flywheel etc) and the component damaged by the incorrectly made part. They have offered you compensation which you have accepted (at least in principal).
This is covered under the "Tort of Negligence" and if I am correct in assuming that the clutch supplier was merely the middle man and did not make the flywheel, only supplied it, then your claim is with the manufacturer.
This comes from case law - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson) - and refers to a snail in a beer at a pub (I kid you not).
I would accept the clutch kit in good faith and have a :cheers:
Send a letter to the manufacturer detailing what happened and would they care to comment.
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Thanks Dazzler
I'll add details to what you wrote in Italic
If I am reading this correctly the part had been manufactured incorrectly, you fitted it in good faith, and it wrecked the sensor. Yes
The supplier has then provided a correct part and replaced the damaged sensor and it has been fitted and all good. Yes, the new parts came thanks to me making contact with the manufacturer directly, as the supplier was not sure what he was looking at when shown the fault
On top of this they have offered you another clutch for your other vehicle which you have accepted. The manufactured has at a cost to me of $360.00, against various retailers $448.00
There is now an argument about the value of the clutch offered. Yes, of sorts, I am saying the $90 saving does not cover my out of pocket expenses due to the need of fault finding, doing the clutch job and materials
If this is correct then from a legal perspective it is game over. They have met their obligations of the contract (supply of flywheel etc) and the component damaged by the incorrectly made part. They have offered you compensation which you have accepted (at least in principal).
This is covered under the "Tort of Negligence" and if I am correct in assuming that the clutch supplier was merely the middle man and did not make the flywheel, only supplied it, then your claim is with the manufacturer. The supplier would like to know how it ends up, but that is just curiosity thing, he is not involved in this now.
This comes from case law - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson) - and refers to a snail in a beer at a pub (I kid you not).
I would accept the clutch kit in good faith and have a :cheers:
Send a letter to the manufacturer detailing what happened and would they care to comment. It is the manufacturer I am dealing with, he has told a few non truths to me so far, which I have pointed out.
My intension is to get a bit more compensation then $90, that is it.
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In all honesty mate I think you might be hard pressed to get anything more.
In your post you state that you agreed to the supply of a landcrusier clutch as compensation.
The cost price vs retail vs eBay is irrelevant as you did not agree to a $$ figure to which the landcruser clutch forms part of. You agreed to the clutch kit.
I would go further as to say they are prob not legally obliged to compensate you for your time in any way . The defective part has been replaced.
So long as you have the landcrusier kit in writing you should just take the clutch, as trying to legally obtain anything further will not be fruitful IMHO and I doubt based on above info from dazzler and relevant case law that any free services will assit.
Always sucks with things like this . I will give an example.
I supplied a 300a/h batt bank and customer wanted a xxxx batt charger , said charger failed 3 weeks later and boiled $900 worth of batts.
Xxxx supplied new charger no problem at all , but laughed at me when I asked about batteries . Their obligation under trade practices was met . So I was left to me to make good on batts with customer . I no longer sell or recommend xxxx chargers.
Take what you can quickly and shop elsewhere next time . The law is not always fair but it is the law.
Jet ;D ;D
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What he said.
The amount of time and angst this is causing is not worth the gain. Take the offer and move on.
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From a legal perspective they have met their obligations under the Australian Consumer Law and also Common Law.
They have supplied a faulty component that has damaged a component of yours and replaced both at no cost.
They have offered compensation for their mistake.
So the argument revolves around compensation. Were this to go to court one lawyer would present case law showing that in a similar case the person in the wrong was made to lick every toilet seat at the MCG AND pay the good guy $1000.00. The other lawyer will present case law showing that in this particular case the person in the wrong had done everything they could to fix the problem and should be awarded the Purple Heart for having to deal with such a difficult customer.
Tongue in cheek of course but you get the idea.
In this case the supplier will present evidence that the product retails for $900 and out of the goodness of their heart they offered it to you at $300 therefore compensation of $600. (I hope the figures are close I have a headache)
You would say that you can get the same one for $400 so the compensation is $90.
I would bet my nuts the court would make compensation midway between the two.
If it were me I would send them a polite letter by registered mail. Thank them for their time in considering the matter and their offer of compensation of a clutch plate etc in recompense of the costs incurred by you as a result of their mistake. Then state what it is that you want. If it were me I would request supply of the goods offered as compensation at no charge.
This needs to be sent to the general manager of the business. Phone and ask his name if you are not dealing with him atm.
Good luck.
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I would no longer pursue any thing.... Why throw another $360 at them on a clutch, which I am guessing you dont need and will be stored as spares, and no doubt they till be making $$$ on that sale as well...
Bite the bullet spend some of the money on a good bottle of plonk beer or spirits or all three hook up the ct and get out there :)
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Also watch that it doesn't become the responsibility of the installer.
Shane.
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I would no longer pursue any thing.... Why throw another $360 at them on a clutch, which I am guessing you dont need and will be stored as spares, and no doubt they till be making $$$ on that sale as well...
Bite the bullet spend some of the money on a good bottle of plonk beer or spirits or all three hook up the ct and get out there :)
Wise words from the north. ;D
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Once again, I have gained Knowledge from the wise world of the Swag.... :cup:
I am not the most confident of bloke when dealing with others on business and / or confrontational type matters , I enlisted the help of someone who is.
The gent I have been in communication with was handed a sharper pencil and came up with a new $ value for a Clutch Kit to suit my Troopy.
Shall have it delivered to my door tomorrow I think.
Done, settled, still a bit unhappy about the 3 weeks of pain I went through over this, 2 x camping trips I missed out on as well. >:(
Cheers everyone.
Dave
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Good news that it's settled.
Seems that Myswag is the best source of free legal advice in oz! :D
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Many moons ago I rebuilt a gemini for a girlfriend. New pistons, rings, gaskets, valves, ignition wires/plugs/cap.
Went to start it and it ran like a dog. After three days found that the dizzy cap had number 1 incorrectly marked and so the firing sequence was out. Nothing like your pain though.