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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bird on January 25, 2014, 12:11:00 PM
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This weekends project:
Run some Cat 6 network cable through the house upstairs.
I have the plan in mind, but one thing that sorta stops me getting started is Im a lazy **** I'm not sure how to run the cable up the inside of the existing walls without destroying them - past any noggins that will be there.
So the roof looks something along these lines.
Was single storey house, then had addition added along the lines of this one - I wish to **** my house did look like this, but alas it doesn't.
(http://www.lifestylehomedesigns.com.au/images/product/image/enl_second_storey_extension-36.jpg)
I wanna run it up the wall from the ground floor, into the roof cavity then #1 son (who doesn't know it yet) will around and about.. but getting it up the wall has me a bit perplexed.
Going under the house isn't that easy either as its a 40yr old house that has been built onto as the original owners family expanded... so you cant get under the house from side to side easily either :( If I could, it would be a cake walk!
So, any hints on how to do it easily?
Thanks
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With a piece of yellow tongue, see if you can follow existing wiring.
Remove a light switch or power point that has cable running to the upper level.
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Wireless
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With a piece of yellow tongue, see if you can follow existing wiring.
Remove a light switch or power point that has cable running to the upper level.
Thanks for the reply.
Numpty question, how do I make it follow the current cable ???
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Wireless
Over it. Plus I have 2+ boxes of Cat 6 to waste :P
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I'd go up a ground floor external wall then into the roof space and pop it out a robe in the top floor. If you have an old house you might be lucky and have no noggins in your external wall. Lift some tiles get some string/fishing line with a sinker on the end and drop it down to see how far you get. If you hit something you'll need a drill extension kit. Make sure you know where the power is and/or turn it off when drill otherwise it might end in tears.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Drill-Extension-Cavity-Kit-/221312641829 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Drill-Extension-Cavity-Kit-/221312641829)
Edit - BTW I have no idea about house construction, I have done this in a previous house (70's vintage) and was surprised there wasn't a noggin in the ground floor wall.
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Are the nogs the same width as the studs?
Ours aren't, and it was fairly easy to slide some yellow-tongue past.
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I'd go up a ground floor external wall then into the roof space and pop it out a robe in the top floor. If you have an old house you might be lucky and have no noggins in your external wall. Lift some tiles get some string/fishing line with a sinker on the end and drop it down to see how far you get. If you hit something you'll need a drill extension kit. Make sure you know where the power is and/or turn it off when drill otherwise it might end in tears.
yea might look into the external wall gig.. I thought going thru the roof cavity would be easiest - or at least I hope it will be :P
No time for ebay ****, I want completed tomorrow :)
Edit: and before buyin a drill thingy for $135, I'll pay someone to do it for me even if it cost more.
Are the nogs the same width as the studs?
Ours aren't, and it was fairly easy to slide some yellow-tongue past.
Fuqt if I know... :( I build servers n **** not run cable :'( :'( :'( ;'(
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..........I'll pay someone to do it for me......
Do that ^...
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Do that ^...
See ya when ya get here :P
I'll give it a try first, it cant be that ****in hard... ... .... ...... ...... ..... can it. :(
The sparky I've had do other work in the house and shed wasn't interested in the work ... :(
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See ya when ya get here :P
....tick, tick, tick.......
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....tick, tick, tick.......
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Wireless
If brick veneer could be a gap between frame and bricks to get yello tongue through.
Or the hardwood shrunk enough to create a gap
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Don't forget the PPE, need to have a toolbox meeting first and don't forget the SWMS(Safe Work Method Statement). Use the appropriate scaffolding and handrail :police:
Make sure you have a schematic diagram of the building and council approval before you start. It will cost you $20000 dollars to apply for a permit and a 6 month wait before they can look at it 8)
http://fotozup.com/define-safety/ (http://fotozup.com/define-safety/)
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Don't forget traffic control. Full temporary fencing and all your signage
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What about up inside a downpipe into gutter and into the roof space ???
Can we book seats to watch the event ??
Mandrake
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What about up inside a downpipe into gutter and into the roof space ???
Can we book seats to watch the event ??
Mandrake
:cup: I'll bring the alcohol, you can't work without that Bruce :cheers:
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Could take a while - I'll bring the Penguin ...
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Is it cavity wall? Ie brick veneer?
Easy to go down than up. If cavity get some reasonable fishing line 100lb and a big arse snapper lead and try dropping down through several paths. If successful you can pull the cat back up. It takes two. If you can get a path up. Get some AC conduit and run up the wall into the ceiling cavity and drop back down.
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Hi Lost,
You can’t legally run Cat 5 cable with a mains cable so forget that idea! If the internal wall is plaster then locate the noggin and drill a hole either side of the noggin then use a jig saw to cut a notch into the noggin, remove the unwanted plaster board and noggin timber, run the cable up the wall and plaster fill cut-outs and repaint the repair, It’s simple and quick.
Regards, Chris
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With a piece of yellow tongue, see if you can follow existing wiring.
Remove a light switch or power point that has cable running to the upper level.
dunno where you are but it's illegal in Qld to run datta / TV type cable in the same holes as power. Very dangerous.
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Now Lost, I'm assuming you glossed over the part in your OP that stated you held a restricted cabling licence to run the data cable you intend.
So on that basis, easiest option for getting from close to the floor to the roof cavity in a brick vanilla is as d4d previously stated to run the cable up through the cavity between the brickwork and the frame.
It helps to remember to add a bit of extra length on the cable down the bottom so it loops down lower than the face plate, so in the unlikely event that you get moisture running down the outside of the cable it will drip from the lowest point rather than running into the back of your rj-45 jack.
Else its stumping up for extensions to get a spade bit down to the noggin on an internal cavity wall, always add a second hole to look through and a small maglite or similar with a beam you can narrow to see down helps and its pot luck if the wall is insulated.
If it is insulated, then finding the noggin and going through the plaster is the only other reasonable option, yellow tongue is your friend, if you can get the yellow tongue through the cable will surely follow.
Also, you need to be a minimum of 300mm away from any mains cable that runs in parallel and as much as practicable make any crossing of mains cables perpendicular.
All of the above also applies to running speaker cable (which you don't need a licence for.)
TBH, in a two story, I'd be paying someone else. Getting into the roof cavity of the ground floor is usually a pita and moving around is even worse.
I would expect that your sparky knows this all to well, which is why he turned it down.
Good luck with it.
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Now Lost, I'm assuming you glossed over the part in your OP that stated you held a restricted cabling licence to run the data cable you intend.
It's ok I have an Open license, I'll supervise for a laugh :laugh:
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......Getting into the roof cavity of the ground floor is usually a pita and moving around is even worse......
;D ;D ;D ;D......have you seen Lost?........ ;D ;D ;D ;D
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With a piece of yellow tongue, see if you can follow existing wiring.
Remove a light switch or power point that has cable running to the upper level.
As has been said before - DO NOT DO THIS. You can't have comms cable right beside power cables, you need at least 50mm of separation.
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i'd have to agree that cat5/6 cabling is best for data but for existing building where its tricky to run cabling i'd probably go for
Ethernet over power instead.
Up to 500Mbit/sec which will certainly meet most people needs.
http://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/powerline/ (http://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/powerline/)
I've got an older 200Mbit/sec system and its worked well for the Metv settop in the lounge and PC downstairs.
Cheers
Mark
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.........but for existing building where its tricky to run cabling i'd probably go for Ethernet over power instead.
My son grew tired of the wireless network here, so he's hooked his room up like that ^.
Works very well.
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;D ;D ;D ;D......have you seen Lost?........ ;D ;D ;D ;D
thus #1 annoyance going into the cavity ... he has now been informed of his mission and he hasn't chosen to accept, and the tape self destructed ... now he has no choice :D
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i'd have to agree that cat5/6 cabling is best for data but for existing building where its tricky to run cabling i'd probably go for
Ethernet over power instead.
Up to 500Mbit/sec which will certainly meet most people needs.
Just be careful sometimes you can have more the one circuit and these devices need to run on the same circuit our last house had a circuit for upstairs and another down so I lost a few $$ on this stuff.
I ended up just using some yellow tongue and made some holes in the plasterboard to get past a problem noggin (got a bit angry) took me longer to fix the holes then to run the cable lol they were fist sized.
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Until you try, you will never know. I will say after doing what you want to do in a 2 storey house, cat 6 is soooo much better than wifi.
In a couple of places, I followed previous installers methods and ran wires externally in conduit. In one spot, I put a network point on the inside before drilling a hole through the wall to get a surface mounted point in the carport. The hard part was getting wires to the TV which was in the middle of the ground floor. I was able to fish it through with the existing coax cable which i pulled back after I eventually worked out the point had been added after the house was built and he had run externally down from the eaves to the floor space betwen levels.
The other day I had solar fitted and they popped a tile on the top floor and pushed a length of conduit from the roof down to the bottom level. They sad the wires had to be in conduit and I was very impressed.
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in the 40 degree heat, popped some roof tiles, and doesn't appear to be any gap between bricks and wall...
this goes in the TFHB
anyone know any sparkies that are interested in work that's not a full housing estate.. everything including Krone tool supplied.
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i'd have to agree that cat5/6 cabling is best for data but for existing building where its tricky to run cabling i'd probably go for
Ethernet over power instead.
Up to 500Mbit/sec which will certainly meet most people needs.
http://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/powerline/ (http://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/powerline/)
I've got an older 200Mbit/sec system and its worked well for the Metv settop in the lounge and PC downstairs.
Cheers
Mark
Do that ^
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As has been said before - DO NOT DO THIS. You can't have comms cable right beside power cables, you need at least 50mm of separation.
What's the risk or problem? I won't do it but I want to know what could happen.
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What's the risk or problem? I won't do it but I want to know what could happen.
Firstly, the rules say so. (But the rules also say you have to use a licensed installer).
I think the data risk is that the 240 volt will introduce noise in the data line. In practice in a house, you never approach the the maximum 100 m distance that Cat 6 is rated for so there is some latitude. A short distance side by side generally has no impact. Remember though that Cat 6 can also be running phones so sending 240v down the outside phone line won't be welcomed by a liney working in the street!
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What's the risk or problem? I won't do it but I want to know what could happen.
Two reasons -
1. The 240V cable can induce voltage into the data cable, depending on how long your run is this could be hazardous
2. The insulation on the data cable is not rated for 240V, so if the cable comes into contact with energised cable that has damaged insulation or bare terminals (such as on the back of a GPO or light switch) you can get 240V on your data cable - I think most people will recognise that is not a good thing.
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you can get 240V on your data cable - I think most people will recognise that is not a good thing.
You can bet your sweet bippy on that one. 240V hurts like hell
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Two reasons -
1. The 240V cable can induce voltage into the data cable, depending on how long your run is this could be hazardous
2. The insulation on the data cable is not rated for 240V, so if the cable comes into contact with energised cable that has damaged insulation or bare terminals (such as on the back of a GPO or light switch) you can get 240V on your data cable - I think most people will recognise that is not a good thing.
WHOA!!!! Thanks for the heads up!!
I have a Cat 5 running in a 50mm conduit (plumbing pipe)* with a lighting circuit for 5 meters that a "licenced" electrician ran for me in '08 when we had a heap of reno's done.
I have not had any problems so far. The cable runs from a router in one end the house to another at the other end to extend the wireless network.
The cable is 30mtrs long all up.
*house has exposed beams in living area and the pipe is sandwiched between tin and plaster in this section.
Should I change it?
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WHOA!!!! Thanks for the heads up!!
I have a Cat 5 running in a 50mm conduit (plumbing pipe)* with a lighting circuit for 5 meters that a "licenced" electrician ran for me in '08 when we had a heap of reno's done.
I have not had any problems so far. The cable runs from a router in one end the house to another at the other end to extend the wireless network.
The cable is 30mtrs long all up.
*house has exposed beams in living area and the pipe is sandwiched between tin and plaster in this section.
Should I change it?
Your call. But I would.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
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So minimum of 50mm gap? Does conduit offer an insulation?
This will be a bitch of a job, will probably have to lift six sheets of tin, which I would prefer not too.
I might be able to get something to slide along side the existing conduit if it offers insulation.
Sorry to hijack your thread Lost.
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Run it external via a bit of conduit at the rear or side of the house if you run it besides a downpipe and paint it the same colour you wont see it and you wouldn't have to run it far.
Put up a real pic of your house then we may be able to nut it out for you.
Some Antenna guys do data as well, cheaper then a sparky and probably get some Tv points put in as well why your at it.
Quick search found this http://www.digitalantennasolutions.com.au/telephone_&_data_points.html (http://www.digitalantennasolutions.com.au/telephone_&_data_points.html) no doubt others would be looking for work as well.
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So minimum of 50mm gap? Does conduit offer an insulation?
Yes it does, but it offers no protection from induction.
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Yes it does, but it offers no protection from induction.
:cheers:
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Twisted pair data cabling such as CAT5/6 is balanced to cancel out interference.
Transmission of a signal over a balanced line reduces the influence of noise or interference due to external stray electric fields. Any external signal sources tend to induce only a common mode signal on the line and the balanced impedances to ground minimizes differential pickup due to stray electric fields. The conductors are sometimes twisted together to ensure that each conductor is equally exposed to any external magnetic fields that could induce unwanted noise.
Some balanced lines also have electromagnetic shielding to reduce the amount of noise introduced.
A balanced line allows a differential receiver to reduce the noise on a connection by rejecting common-mode interference. The lines have the same impedance to ground, so the interfering fields or currents induce the same voltage in both wires. Since the receiver responds only to the difference between the wires, it is not influenced by the induced noise voltage. If twisted pair becomes unbalanced, for example due to insulation failure, noise will be induced. Examples of twisted pairs include Category 5 cable.
Compared to unbalanced circuits, balanced lines reduce the amount of noise per distance, allowing a longer cable run to be practical. This is because electromagnetic interference will affect both signals the same way. Similarities between the two signals are automatically removed at the end of the transmission path when one signal is subtracted from the other.
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All good in theory Wortho, however I have witnessed electrical noise injected into structured cabling due to inadequate separation. Took months to narrow it down as it was intermittent, turned out to be interference from the lift going by one floor and interfering with the cabling in the riser.
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Twisted pair data cabling such as CAT5/6 is balanced to cancel out interference.
Transmission of a signal over a balanced line reduces the influence of noise or interference due to external stray electric fields. Any external signal sources tend to induce only a common mode signal on the line and the balanced impedances to ground minimizes differential pickup due to stray electric fields. The conductors are sometimes twisted together to ensure that each conductor is equally exposed to any external magnetic fields that could induce unwanted noise.
Some balanced lines also have electromagnetic shielding to reduce the amount of noise introduced.
A balanced line allows a differential receiver to reduce the noise on a connection by rejecting common-mode interference. The lines have the same impedance to ground, so the interfering fields or currents induce the same voltage in both wires. Since the receiver responds only to the difference between the wires, it is not influenced by the induced noise voltage. If twisted pair becomes unbalanced, for example due to insulation failure, noise will be induced. Examples of twisted pairs include Category 5 cable.
Compared to unbalanced circuits, balanced lines reduce the amount of noise per distance, allowing a longer cable run to be practical. This is because electromagnetic interference will affect both signals the same way. Similarities between the two signals are automatically removed at the end of the transmission path when one signal is subtracted from the other.
When that common mode interference can raise the conductor voltage above the voltage rating of the cable, you have a problem - I couldn't care less if the signal is unaffected. I'm only interested in the safety aspect here.
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Two reasons -
1. The 240V cable can induce voltage into the data cable, depending on how long your run is this could be hazardous
I agree with this, I use to look after a large pub in western NSW where the owner/"never got his licence" electrician rewired the pub and installed a fire panel but bunched all cables both 24 and 240v together. the induced voltage kept blowing circuit boards in the fire panel for which it cost him about $800 plus fire brigade (kept sending it into alarm) costs a hit - he could not accept that induced voltage in the line could be the cause.
Jason