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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Renno on November 14, 2013, 02:11:26 PM
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I was told today by tjm store owner that nsw government are banning after market long range fuel tanks very soon due to fire/explosion potential. He wasn't happy about it either...... Not sure how true it is.... Looks like not banned so to speak but will require engineere cert...
Renno :cheers:
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I would like to know what they base their decision on??? I've never heard of even one fire incident due to a long range tank, especially a diesel one!!
Another pen pusher trying to justify their wage.
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Renno,
Does that include diesel?
Keith
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G'day Renno,
I'd be asking the store owner for some documentation or a contact that can be approached to put the question and chase this up.
Citing, you are a member of a very large group of travelers and they would be very interested in this news. ;D
I agree with John, Must be someone feeling a little uncertain about their job atm.
Let us know how ya get on.
:cheers:
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Probably because their product longer complies with ADR's, particularly with regard to emmissions control systems.
check out section LM of the Vehicle Standards National Code of Practice in the attached link, ok, its a QLD site, but still applies in other states (except down here where everyone seems to do what they like with regard to lifts, tyres, etc).
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Vehicle-modifications/Light-vehicle-modifications.aspx (http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Vehicle-modifications/Light-vehicle-modifications.aspx)
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In QLD it's always been that way as far as I know
Sent from somewhere that I really shouldn't be posting on forums
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It shouldn't be n issua as long as it is fitted to factory mounting points.
That's how I read it in your picture #2.
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I would say it is because some of them now require additional mounts to be placed on the chassis compromising the structural integrity of the vehicle if not done right
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It shouldn't be n issua as long as it is fitted to factory mounting points.
That's how I read it in your picture #2.
Only if capacity stays the same..
Renno :cheers:
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My GU had LRA tanks in it when I got it, mod plated from ARB brassy.
Sent from somewhere that I really shouldn't be posting on forums
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I had the two tanks in my Nissan blue plated, I think it has been that way for some time in Qld.
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I got a longranger fitted by ARB and it came with a blue plate in QLD.
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I got a longranger fitted by ARB and it came with a blue plate in QLD.
same here with mine, i think they charged an extra $80 (or close to that figure from memory) on top of fitting cost to cover the engineering plate. has been law here in Qld for ages, just a lot of people don't bother to do it
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same here with mine, i think they charged an extra $80 (or close to that figure from memory) on top of fitting cost to cover the engineering plate. has been law here in Qld for ages, just a lot of people don't bother to do it
If it's as simple as that not sure why tjm was making a big deal out of it..
Renno :cheers:
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If it's as simple as that not sure why tjm was making a big deal out of it..
Renno :cheers:
for the cost ARB charged to mod plate it, i couldn't see a reason not to do it...atleast it keeps the DOT boys off my back if they ever pull me over. all i can think of is, maybe the TJM guys don't have someone in house or easily accessible licenced to do the mod plate for them?
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People in other states may disagree but a lot of the changes to the NCOP was the rest adopting QLD's mod plate system according to QLd transport themselves. My tank was plated in QLD as part of the process 4 years ago.
People just don't like change. TJM will get used to it.
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Also could be handy having the blue plate under the bonnet when they try and go ya for big lift and tyres.
Sent from somewhere that I really shouldn't be posting on forums
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What this relates to and the document posted in the original post is the new VSI6 that is now in play in NSW
http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi6.pdf (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi6.pdf)
Published on 8 November 2013.
FUEL SYSTEM (continued)
Item Modification
48 Fitting/adding an alternative fuel tank or repositioning an existing fuel tank to non-original
mounting points.
Example requiring certification:
• Fitting an alternative fuel tank or repositioning of an existing fuel tank to
non-original mounting points.
Example not requiring certification:
• Fitting a replacement fuel tank of equal capacity using the original manufacturer’s
mounting points.
The VSI 6 covers Light Vehicle Modifications
Purpose
This Vehicle Standards Information (VSI) No. 6 is intended to help vehicle owners and
modifiers determine what modifications to vehicles up to and including 4.5 tonnes gross
vehicle mass require certification.
Included in the document and worth a read by those from NSW to see what the now legal vehicle modifications are.
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Cheers for posting that link Al.
:cheers:
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Lucky that I am in WA, the free state (for now)
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What happens if you've had the long range tank fitted 8 or 10 years ago ??? Do you have to go and get it inspected and plated?
If you do where do you get it done (local rego check mechanic?) and how much.
Seems like another money making skeem someone dreamed up >:(
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What happens if you've had the long range tank fitted 8 or 10 years ago ??? Do you have to go and get it inspected and plated?
If you do where do you get it done (local rego check mechanic?) and how much.
Seems like another money making skeem someone dreamed up >:(
In short it appears Yes, but I would be making further inquiries.
http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsccs_faqs.pdf (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsccs_faqs.pdf)
Do vehicles that have been modified prior to 8
November 2013 have to comply with the requirements
of the Order?
Yes, vehicles that have been previously modified in a
manner that is considered significant under the Order will
require certification if they have not already been certified.
RMS will consider requests for time extensions to obtain
suitable certification for modified vehicles on a case by
case basis.
I can not say if a previously fitted axillary tank would considered significant under the Order to require a Certificate or not. Be one to check.
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Seems like another money making skeem someone dreamed up >:(
x 239209348023984
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Only applied to NSW Lost but it seems to that way at times
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It shouldn't be n issua as long as it is fitted to factory mounting points.
That may be one of the problems. I have seen a few posts on the net talking about broken factory mounting points. The usual result is the tank manufacturer says it is not their fault because the tank did not break and the car manufacturer is not interested because the mounting points were not designed to carry heavier tanks.
Another issue could be the design of many larger tanks. They often consist of flat plate with sharp welded corners. I can't remember ever having seen a standard tank built like that. Vibration and fuel movement could easily result in cracked welds caused by flexing.
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Another issue could be the design of many larger tanks. They often consist of flat plate with sharp welded corners. I can't remember ever having seen a standard tank built like that. Vibration and fuel movement could easily result in cracked welds caused by flexing.
I'm pretty sure the tank manufacturers like LRA etc. know how to build a fuel tank with baffles, expansion chambers etc.
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I'm pretty sure the tank manufacturers like LRA etc. know how to build a fuel tank with baffles, expansion chambers etc.
Agreed, but where I do agree with this standardization is that the jerry built units like described that sit on the rear of some 4x4 trays will become illegal.
The sooner these standardised laws become the norm across all states the better. Some of the mods, lifts, tyre combos, etc I see down here scare me.
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I looked a getting LR tanks a couple of years ago. Was a little surprised when told they didn't need certification (VIC).
Certification could be a problem for those that have bought a tank and fitted themselves.......
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Moral of the story, buy a Prado 120 with 180L on board from the factory :)
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Moral of the story, buy a Prado 120 with 180L on board from the factory :)
Yep. They do have excellent fuel capacity.
The rear bumpers aren't very good, though......
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That may be one of the problems. I have seen a few posts on the net talking about broken factory mounting points. The usual result is the tank manufacturer says it is not their fault because the tank did not break and the car manufacturer is not interested because the mounting points were not designed to carry heavier tanks.
Another issue could be the design of many larger tanks. They often consist of flat plate with sharp welded corners. I can't remember ever having seen a standard tank built like that. Vibration and fuel movement could easily result in cracked welds caused by flexing.
Standard tanks today are generally plastic. Previously they were pressed which dictated they need to be rounded. The few long range tanks I have had are built like brick Shit houses, yes they are square but a much thicker gauge and baffled and braced. I landed on the Paj one a few times. The only failures I have heard of is being belted by rocks and failing due to position. For Landcruisers I believe Longranger offer an optional 6mm bottom!
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Moral of the story, buy a Prado 120 with 180L on board from the factory :)
If you can't afford to fill the 180. Then get a 150 with 150 on board
I put a long range tank into my 40 series, 120 litres of petrol underneath the seats, still wouldn't get far used to measure in gallons/ mile well almost
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Standard tanks today are generally plastic. Previously they were pressed which dictated they need to be rounded. The few long range tanks I have had are built like brick **** houses, yes they are square but a much thicker gauge and baffled and braced. I landed on the Paj one a few times. The only failures I have heard of is being belted by rocks and failing due to position.
I just had a look at Hilux tanks on the LR site seeing I have one. Their '84 to '97 single cab 4x4 holds 134 litres and has a shipping weight of 45 kg. The location is listed as being original and from what I can see in a photo, it like it is sitting on the factory mounting points.
My workshop manual for the '88 to '97 lists the stock tank at 71 litres. I placed a stock 2004 4x4 SC tank on my bathroom scales and it weighed around 14 kg. It holds 77 litres. Two of them would hold 154 and weigh in at only 28.
I would assume the LR tank would weigh at least 40 kg after the box and packing have been removed. The extra fuel would be about 63 for petrol and a little less for diesel. That means the additional weight would be over 100 kgs. If all of that really is hanging off the factory mounts then no wonder there have been cases of them breaking and I am not surprised the Government wants engineers to have a look at them.
For Landcruisers I believe Longranger offer an optional 6mm bottom!
Are they serious? 6 mm of steel to keep rocks out? I think I would need bigger scales to weigh the thing. Is that for flying rocks or is the tank so low that it is hitting the ground. If that is the case then how much stress would the tank be putting on the factory mounts as rocks try to either push the tank back or stop the downward movement of the car?
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If all of that really is hanging off the factory mounts then no wonder there have been cases of them breaking and I am not surprised the Government wants engineers to have a look at them.
What cases? I have never heard of any other than a few from stones on the Plenty Hwy when its bad. None of falling off and breaking mounts. This is just a beuracrat working through the ARB catalog and justifying his job. He can't very well say, everything's good now, Iam not needed anymore.
The mounts vary, the LRA mount on the Pajero is strong as. Same on the LC 200
Are they serious? 6 mm of steel to keep rocks out? I think I would need bigger scales to weigh the thing. Is that for flying rocks or is the tank so low that it is hitting the ground. If that is the case then how much stress would the tank be putting on the factory mounts as rocks try to either push the tank back or stop the downward movement of the car?
Both knowing the landcrusier tank position. Go and look at a tank and then a Landcrusier I have no concerns for the rear chassis section or the way the tank mounts to it.
If you concerned for mounting points get on the bull bar brigade. Far more risk of mounting failure with a bull bar extended forward. Hey there has even been many reported cases.
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This is just a beuracrat working through the ARB catalog and justifying his job. He can't very well say, everything's good now, Iam not needed anymore.
Have you ever worked in the Public Service? I spent 15 years in it and that was long enough to see that nobody does anything without something happening to force them to get up off their off their backsides. I have heard of factory mounting points breaking but I can't remember what makes of cars were involved. The last one I saw was on Exploroz and it was not the only one that I have heard of. All I am trying to do is think of why any Government would want to introduce engineering certificates for aftermarket tanks and having them fall off the chassis because of overloaded factory mounting points would be enough to get them going.
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Mate I simly refuse to belive there has been enough failures for the govt to target this? There must be something else
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Mate I simly refuse to belive there has been enough failures for the govt to target this?
It would only take one. If follow up testing proved it was caused by over stressed stock mounts then every car of the same make with the same tank would be at risk. It would only be a matter of time before each car received the required amount of vibration or whatever before it failed. There would also be a cloud hanging over all other makes as well as new models when they come onto the market.
A good question is how much reserve strength do car manufacturers build into their stock fuel tank mounts? There may mot be very much because you can't overload a stock tank. It would appear that some of these after market tanks are increasing the weight on stock mounts by 80% or more. We know what can happen to a chassis when you put too much weight too far behind the rear axle. A much heavier fuel tank suddenly rising and falling on rough roads has got to eventually have an effect on something.
I noticed some tanks also extend up over the drive shaft. Can you think of any cars that have their stock tanks mounted above any rotating shaft because I can't? That may also be an issue the government is looking at..
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It would only take one. If follow up testing proved it was caused by over stressed stock mounts then every car of the same make with the same tank would be at risk. It would only be a matter of time before each car received the required amount of vibration or whatever before it failed. There would also be a cloud hanging over all other makes as well as new models when they come onto the market.
A good question is how much reserve strength do car manufacturers build into their stock fuel tank mounts? There may mot be very much because you can't overload a stock tank. It would appear that some of these after market tanks are increasing the weight on stock mounts by 80% or more. We know what can happen to a chassis when you put too much weight too far behind the rear axle. A much heavier fuel tank suddenly rising and falling on rough roads has got to eventually have an effect on something.
I noticed some tanks also extend up over the drive shaft. Can you think of any cars that have their stock tanks mounted above any rotating shaft because I can't? That may also be an issue the government is looking at..
Maybe you should go back into PS ? Only one issue to get them fired up hey?
I watched an episode of "ambulance something " or other last night. The wife records them, this was up near Newcastle and the para ambos flew out to a farm to help a guy who had leapt off a runaway ute with a child to save her life. Scenario was kids on back ute parked, handbrake applied, gets out ute runs away on handbrake if for not the actions of the guy (who could also be blamed in this blame everybody world for having kids unrestrained in the back ) the one frozen girl would have rode the ute as it roll several times down the hill to an Almost certain tragedy except for the actions of the guy, who trusted a handbrake. Landcrusier owners know where I am going with this. Hands up those with a LC who would consider the handbrake a safe feature and ever trust it? So why don't the government act? What about floor mats that Toyota dealers are removing from cars at service intervals? It has been known to cause accidents and toyota are acting? People continue to back over children in there own driveway. In NSW it used to be legal requirement you always exit your property in a forward direction, why don't governments act?
I don't know what fcuked up reason they had for picking on long range tanks, and TBH if it makes them safer I don't have a problem with it. But I don't believe logic or our benefit has much to do with it.
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In NSW it used to be legal requirement you always exit your property in a forward direction, why don't governments act?
Maybe they found just as many kids were getting run over when they ran out to meet mum or dad while they were backing the car in so it could come out in a forward direction so they could miss the kids.
The hand brake on my Lux, like the LC, has not got a good reputation either but I have never had a problem with it. I just keep it adjusted properly and it works, even on steep hills in the bush.
There a lot of things the Government could act on but, as I said before, they need a push to get them going. Maybe there have been enough tank problems to tip them over the edge so they have decided to do something.
I found this site today while looking for more information on tank problems http://www.mtdare.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=8 (http://www.mtdare.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=8) Fuel tanks get a mention on their list of the most common problems that occur while crossing the Simpson. They also say the most common breakdowns are from after market products.
Their photo gallery shows a few breakdowns that include a couple of broken diff housings and a broken chassis plus some wheel bearings and axles. We hear a lot about chassis and wheel bearing problems but it looks like these don't occur often enough because they did not make their list.
I think you will find there is a lot more trouble with aftermarket fuel tanks than most people realise.
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I found this site today while looking for more information on tank problems http://www.mtdare.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=8 (http://www.mtdare.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=8) Fuel tanks get a mention on their list of the most common problems that occur while crossing the Simpson. They also say the most common breakdowns are from after market products.
Their photo gallery shows a few breakdowns that include a couple of broken diff housings and a broken chassis plus some wheel bearings and axles. We hear a lot about chassis and wheel bearing problems but it looks like these don't occur often enough because they did not make their list.
I think you will find there is a lot more trouble with aftermarket fuel tanks than most people realise.
That Mt Dare site talks about leaking fuel due to poorly or loose fitted hoses on new tanks. It also mentions it in the same context as doing your preparation or modifications well in advance. And it's going to continue to happen because the same people will be fitting them its just there will now be an engineers certificate included and and additional cost.
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Maybe they found just as many kids were getting run over when they ran out to meet mum or dad while they were backing the car in so it could come out in a forward direction so they could miss the kids.
What about texting while driving? Identifyed as a major cause of road accidents, why don't the governments mandate that the telcos Introduce technology to stop mobiles working whilst they are travelling? Very easy to to do, a Canadian company has the technology and that was before all the smartphones that have GPSs that make it even easier to introduce. There's a simple one for the champions of our Saftey they can introduce it at the same time as saving us from the dangers of AM fuel tanks?
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Vic requirements re fuel tanks. Page 5 HERE (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/9B3A858D-15A0-4572-90BF-3D08214BF7BE/0/VSInumber8Guidetomodificationsformotorvehicles.pdf)
Engineers required if using the original mounts and capacity is over 125% of original.
Nothing about extra tanks.
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Vic requirements re fuel tanks. Page 5 HERE (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/9B3A858D-15A0-4572-90BF-3D08214BF7BE/0/VSInumber8Guidetomodificationsformotorvehicles.pdf)
Engineers required if using the original mounts and capacity is over 125% of original.
Nothing about extra tanks.
Yeah a bit ambiguous isn't it. As it refers to "replacement or additional" but only refers engineering replacement over 125%.
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think what they new VSI6 is getting at in relation to the auxillary fuel tanks, is not the actual instillation of the tanks but more the fabrication of the tanks. Cracking down on the home made tanks or the custom made one of tanks and to a lesser degree the home fitted tank.