MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: FalcOn on September 11, 2013, 06:27:56 PM
-
First it was the Patrol and now the Pathfinder, why does Nissan only offer petrol in newly developed 4WD - not that this sounds like a 4WD contender anymore...
http://www.carpoint.com.au/reviews/2013/medium-4x4/nissan/pathfinder/nissan-pathfinder-2013-quick-spin-38783
-
Maybe they should rename it to Streetfinder if its a majority purchased for urban use.
-
Nissans Game is to make a profit and there appears little reason to develop a diesel just yet.
Refering to latest 4wd action road test between 200 series diesel and patrol V8 confirms this.
A 5000km Simpson round trip head to head gave Nissan better ride , power and better handling in sand.
But the kicker was the fuel consumption - The 298kw beast achieving 15.8lt / 100km whilst the cruiser was 15.4.
I.E. No significant difference - > Now lets repeat that, no real difference and we are talking about a fire breathing monster petrol against the Landcruiser diesel.
So if fuel is a non-issue , why bother with the rest.
-
But Caravan world done a test between both vehicles above and fuel consumption for nissan was near 30lt 100km to 20 ish for diesel cruiser.( towing a van)
And I wouldnt put too much faith into what 4wd action said either
-
But Caravan world done a test between both vehicles above and fuel consumption for nissan was near 30lt 100km to 20 ish for diesel cruiser.( towing a van)
Robin has been a 4.8 fan since he got the first one that blew up...
And I wouldnt put too much faith into what 4wd action said either
(http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1729858256_1373982505.jpg)
-
But the kicker was the fuel consumption - The 298kw beast achieving 15.8lt / 100km whilst the cruiser was 15.4.
They're playing with themelves - http://news.drive.com.au/drive/new-car-comparison/outback-comparison-review-range-rover-v-mercedes-v-toyota-v-nissan-20130816-2s03i.html (http://news.drive.com.au/drive/new-car-comparison/outback-comparison-review-range-rover-v-mercedes-v-toyota-v-nissan-20130816-2s03i.html)
It was the Patrol that needed the most. On top of its 140-litre tank we pumped 60 litres from jerrycans. In the end it used about 180 litres - upwards of 30 litres per 100 kilometres in rougher stretches - with the average fuel use across our test route (Birdsville to Kulgera, in the Northern Territory) of 18.9L/100km.
It was closely followed by the LandCruiser, which used 17.4L/100km. What raised the Cruiser's overall fuel use was the higher-speed running - it had a packed roof rack that ruined its aerodynamic drag.
Keep in mind the 200 had 300kgs on the roof rack...
-
Maybe it's the market they are interested in. Diesel cars in the US represent less than 5% of new cars while 70% are sold in Europe. It still doesn't make sense why they wouldn't offer both to open up the market. Even in the US diesel cars represent the strongest growth yet Nissan go the other way. Then they sell the old model next to it not to lose market share!
-
I was thinking just how far we have come D4D - even if one excepted that test over the Head to Head 4wd action test then we are still only talking about a less than 10% difference in something that is less than 20% of the cost of ownership , and with the Patrol offering better angles, handling , clearance and power it really is a new world out there with these direct petrol injection systems.
-
Pity you can't get PULP in the bush
-
Pity you can't get PULP in the bush
Bingo!! :cheers:
-
Guys you gotta get out more, thats a big red herring - the Y62 will tune itself down to ULP it just won't be as good.
Mind you its getting harder to find places without Pulp and couple of weeks ago in Birdsville I got quite a surprise when that mobil service station round the back had Pulp and Ulp at same price - so did Copley, and both were cheaper that the diesel.
Not sure whats going on there - maybe between deliveries ?
-
Guys you gotta get out more, thats a big red herring - the Y62 will tune itself down to ULP it just won't be as good
ding ding ding ding
-
So you are looking at about a 12L Per 100 difference when towing or working. The offset this by the usual cheaper price of unleaded for the average punter who may only do one decent trip of 5000k per year (i am being generous here) it would cost them approx 600 Litres in extra fuel at say $1.50 per litre = $900 dollars per trip
-
Surely it would be hard to identify any strategy within Nissan Australia for many years? For eg,
- Had a good car in Pulsar, dropped that and brought in Tiida
- Had a good car in Micra, design was raped by radioactive ladybug
- No midsize sedan or hatch in a market eschewing larger vehicles
- Maxima styling blights a great vehicle
- Had a good car in Xtrail, but have now softened it and made it look exactly like Dualis
- Sold old and new model Navara's side by side
- Now the same with Patrol
On the plus side
- Have one of the best supercars in the world in the GTR, but you hardly see them anywhere
- Z car is cool
-
They make some odd decisions but the figures dont lie...........
Production output 4,889,379 units (2012)
Revenue ¥9.63 trillion (2012)
Operating income ¥523.5 billion (2012)
Profit ¥342.4 billion (2012)
Total assets ¥12.8 trillion (2012)
Total equity ¥4.51 trillion (2012)
-
That's ¥342.4 billion Yuan profit last year or A$59 billion Australian.
On about 5 million cars per annum, that's A$11K profit per car.
Surely not?
-
That's ¥342.4 billion Yuan profit last year or A$59 billion Australian.
On about 5 million cars per annum, that's A$11K profit per car.
Surely not?
yeh easily. You need to factor into the profit a lot more things than just cars, although Nissans dont break down so spares wouldnt be a big part ;D
-
I was recently reading a discussion about diesel vs petrol in the landcruiser forum. I don't think petrol is that far behind but checking the numbers it seems like under 10% (maybe 5%) of new 200 series are petrol - despite the recent upgrade in petrol donk for them.
So the market has spoken.
Toyota recently took most of the remaining 4wd petrol hilux versions off the market. Not many petrol 4wd utes out there anymore.
Gotta wonder about Nissan's approach. Worldwide it might be petrol that has the advantage but they'll struggle in Australia.
-
On about 5 million cars per annum, that's A$11K profit per car.
Surely not?
Easily + Shit loads more.
You should see the discounts places like Rio Tinto get on cars.. >:( :'( . and they still make money on those cars..
-
I was offered a $27K discount on a new TI-L Patrol the other day
and I didn't even ask
because I wont be buying any new cars for a while
-
I was offered a $27K discount on a new TI-L Patrol the other day
and I didn't even ask
because I wont be buying any new cars for a while
but that was just due to your good looks.
-
but that was just due to your good looks.
Oh. The sales bloke was... well... a bloke.
-
Saw my first Y62 Patrol on the road just this afternoon.
-
Even though the figures can be made to look like they stack up for the Petrol versus the Diesel, the reality is ( and no matter what price you paid for the 4wd ) that every week it costs you more out of your pocket to fuel a petrol..
Now, we know if you had bought a cheaper petrol in the 1st place, then that saving would have taken X amount of yrs to get even if you had bought a diesel.......BUT.....in the real world, you have bought and paid for the 4wd ( or paying it off ) and the fuel cost is coming out of your pocket every week..
-
Hey, I resemble that...
:'(
-
They make some odd decisions but the figures dont lie...........
Production output 4,889,379 units (2012)
Revenue ¥9.63 trillion (2012)
Operating income ¥523.5 billion (2012)
Profit ¥342.4 billion (2012)
Total assets ¥12.8 trillion (2012)
Total equity ¥4.51 trillion (2012)
This is yen, not yuan, nissan is Japanese. So this is closer to 3.7 b or under a grand a car,
-
I have a diesel because I want a diesel, I have been driving diesels for almost 40 years in 4wds. I like petrol cars and thats fine.
i don't give a rats freckle how much fuel I use in my V8 troopy as it is the best vehicle for the job that I do, I will be tipping out of the Troopy in a few months and getting a twin cab V8 ute that will have a 600mm stretch. ;D If nissan had of released the new truck with a decent oiler in I would have got one of those instead. I do not like the ZD30 to small IMO.
the petrols are from al reports o good engine but some of us just prefer an oiler that simple.
Cheers
Rat
-
Even though the figures can be made to look like they stack up for the Petrol versus the Diesel, the reality is ( and no matter what price you paid for the 4wd ) that every week it costs you more out of your pocket to fuel a petrol..
Now, we know if you had bought a cheaper petrol in the 1st place, then that saving would have taken X amount of yrs to get even if you had bought a diesel.......BUT.....in the real world, you have bought and paid for the 4wd ( or paying it off ) and the fuel cost is coming out of your pocket every week..
There has been dozens of comparisons done on this one. When you take into account the more frequent servicing and the cost of parts for diesels it averages out about the same, this is especially the case since we now pay equal or more per litre for diesel as we do for petrol.
-
Fairfax's Drive.com.au is reporting that modern diesels are not the cost effective solution they once were and that longevity is also declining due to the complexity of the electronics systems.
I've got a V8 petrol Cruiser and its great; but it lacks the massive torque of a diesel and so is not as good when towing.
-
Surely it would be hard to identify any strategy within Nissan Australia for many years? For eg,
- Had a good car in Pulsar, dropped that and brought in Tiida
- Had a good car in Micra, design was raped by radioactive ladybug
- No midsize sedan or hatch in a market eschewing larger vehicles
- Maxima styling blights a great vehicle
- Had a good car in Xtrail, but have now softened it and made it look exactly like Dualis
- Sold old and new model Navara's side by side
- Now the same with Patrol
the Pathfinder too. Now it's just another softroader. Doesn't even have low range.
On the plus side
- Have one of the best supercars in the world in the GTR, but you hardly see them anywhere
- Z car is cool
-
Fairfax's Drive.com.au is reporting that modern diesels are not the cost effective solution they once were and that longevity is also declining due to the complexity of the electronics systems.
I agree with this statement. Injectors, pumps and other ancillary fuel system components are considered my many manufacturers to be consumables these days. Gone are the days of simple reliable mechanical pumps and injectors that will still run even when completely buggered.
I've just spent around $3500 in new parts (Injectors, HP pump, pressure reg) on my Mercedes engined Jeep to get it running reliably again. Those dollars would buy a lot of petrol and if I needed to replace these parts on a petrol I would be up for a fraction of this cost.
I've heard that petrol V8 cruisers get very similar economy to the diesel when towing, while it may not have the torque of the diesel it is also cheaper to buy and maintain for the owner. I'd hazzard a guess it is probably more profitable for Toyota and this may also be one of the reasons Nissan is doing a petrol only option.
-
I've heard that petrol V8 cruisers get very similar economy to the diesel when towing, while it may not have the torque of the diesel it is also cheaper to buy and maintain for the owner.
I basically agree ... but then why do so few people buy the petrol cruiser?
-
Pity you can't get PULP in the bush
Was available everywhere on the Cape this year.
Reality is, I am a petrol fan, yes my economy on the cruiser is crap, but the diesels are not great either. If I was that concerned about economy, I'd be driving a Prius not a cruiser.
-
Buying petrol vehicles has other longer term side effects:
Petrol vehicle Resale will be a fraction of diesel vehicles on average
Overall reliability will be lower than a diesel
Long term mileage on a diesel engine will be roughly double that of a petrol engine.
You can replace the word petrol with the word Nissan, and the word diesel with Toyota and this equation still works...weird...
Carlisle
-
Was available everywhere on the Cape this year.
Reality is, I am a petrol fan, yes my economy on the cruiser is crap, but the diesels are not great either. If I was that concerned about economy, I'd be driving a Prius not a cruiser.
The Cape really isn't very remote.
Happy enough with the fuel use with mine. 12's running around, 16's towing the camper.
-
The Cape really isn't very remote.
Happy enough with the fuel use with mine. 12's running around, 16's towing the camper.
Gee I would be happy with those as well mate :-[ next thing you will be telling me is that you can fill it in a normal time as well ;D
-
.......next thing you will be telling me is that you can fill it in a normal time as well ;D
Foaming makes the last little bit painful, but OK otherwise.
Is it still giving you grief, Craig?
-
Foaming makes the last little bit painful, but OK otherwise.
Is it still giving you grief, Craig?
yeah, but not every time, only probably every three fills or so and I still can not find anything wrong :(
-
I fill with the newer Caltex Vortex Diesel (due to work fuel card) it has an anti foaming agent in it apparently. I always use the hi-flo pump and jam the fuel tank cap in the handle. Seems to run it around 80% flow rate and clicks off when full, works well and no foaming. When Caltex had the previous diesel it used to foam like a bubble bath.
-
I basically agree ... but then why do so few people buy the petrol cruiser?
Because people believe the diesel is the more economical or better option would be my guess.
Some people never consider their options either.
-
It seems that the difference in consumption between smaller petrol/diesel 4x4s is more noticeable. eg Landcruiser diesel 13-15L/100km, petrol 14-17L/100km. Pajero diesel 10L/100km, petrol 15-17L/100km.
I had 2 petrol/gas Patrols (98 &99), most reliable and tough 4x4 I have owned. BUT they used gas at 26L/100km and petrol at 22L/100km. On a trip I would get 450-500km from 80L gas and 50L petrol towing the 850kg camper. LPG was cheap but filling up 85L every 300-330km was a pain in the arse and that was the reason I changed to a diesel.
Now I have an 04 diesel Pajero and I get ~700km from 80L. Cost the same as the Patrol on gas but without the worry of running out. Much more convenient with the missus and 3 kids, for us anyway. I also love the way the diesel delivers the power too, very flat torque curve in the auto, no matter what rpms/speed/load she just pulls as required. Not fast but solid.
New low capacity CRDs may be different, I have only driven a 2010 manual D22 Navara, that had nothing under 1800rpm but when it hit 2000rpm it was a different car!
I still reckon it crazy not having a diesel Patrol/Pathfinder in Australia. Would like to see a sales comparison in a years time...
-
Trouble with these modern diesels is they recirculate too many engine gases and end up chocking to death. >:D
I don't think you can compare engine longevity of a modern turbo charged common rail diesel to the old naturally aspirated diesels.
There seem to be plenty of instances of diesels having major and expensive failures at around 100 to 150,000 kms.
-
Back on track with the nissan strategy???
Could it be that they need x amount of those engines sold to meet the production car criteria for racing?
I know very little about it, but just a thought?
Brian
-
It's because the Australian market means jack Shit in the scheme of things. America, Middle East and Russia are much more lucrative markets and they are big petrol car markets. Why waste resources building a vehicle that sells a thousand or so a year as a diesel when you are aiming to sell considerably more petrol variants
-
Saw the new Xtrail in the paper yesterday.
It ain't no Xtrail no more.
-
It's because the Australian market means jack **** in the scheme of things. America, Middle East and Russia are much more lucrative markets and they are big petrol car markets. Why waste resources building a vehicle that sells a thousand or so a year as a diesel when you are aiming to sell considerably more petrol variants
And finally the answer to the question :cup:
Also if you have ever been overseas, you'll find many vehicals that Australia doesn't get, all geared for the European and American markets.
Baz.
-
And finally the answer to the question :cup:
Also if you have ever been overseas, you'll find many vehicals that Australia doesn't get, all geared for the European and American markets.
Baz.
Yep agree except the Americans are becoming more fond of diesels, and seeking them in more models.
-
On the diesel v petrol debate. The other factor is the drivability, I didn't try a petrol Crusier as I didn't want to lose $30k over two years. But with the Pajero, the six was atrocious to drive and would have towed worse IMO. The smooth delivery of torque made the TD 3.2 that much better abeilt louder.
-
Yep agree except the Americans are becoming more fond of diesels, and seeking them in more models.
yes, but not pissy tiny extremely stressed 1 ltr engines....
They want good old lazy 6.6ltr, 7.3ltr etc
-
On the diesel v petrol debate. The other factor is the drivability, I didn't try a petrol Crusier as I didn't want to lose $30k over two years. But with the Pajero, the six was atrocious to drive and would have towed worse IMO. The smooth delivery of torque made the TD 3.2 that much better abeilt louder.
Diesels will always tow better as they have better torque, not to be mistaken for faster, because towing is all about the torque, not power, but when towing with a petrol engine you need more revs as they don't have the torque of a diesel, and why they use a lot more fuel when towing.
Baz.
-
yes, but not pissy tiny extremely stressed 1 ltr engines....
They want good old lazy 6.6ltr, 7.3ltr etc
You'd be surprised how the yanks are slowly turning........the price of petrol is surprisingly dear compared to a few yrs ago, and as always, the back pocket talks.....
-
Those consumption figures are unladened. From expensive experience I can state that when working hard consumption in my V8 Cruiser goes up more than in an equivalent diesel.
But again, for me, the big difference is the 50% more torque the diesels deliver.
Also, if one takes a 200TTD as an example, a chip and a pipe and all of a sudden it's producing more like 300Kw and 700-800Nm. You can't get those same magnitude increases out of a modern petrol engine, and maintain efficiency and reliability.
-
Hi Jules
One of our 4.8lt petrol Patrols makes 420kw and almost 900nm - but I expect you will have us on the reliability and efficentcy.
Those consumption figures are unladened. From expensive experience I can state that when working hard consumption in my V8 Cruiser goes up more than in an equivalent diesel.
But again, for me, the big difference is the 50% more torque the diesels deliver.
Also, if one takes a 200TTD as an example, a chip and a pipe and all of a sudden it's producing more like 300Kw and 700-800Nm. You can't get those same magnitude increases out of a modern petrol engine, and maintain efficiency and reliability.
-
I have a letter from Nissan stating their 2013 Patrols have a unknown problem, even found in show room rigs and IMHO will be a big recall once they find out what it is.