MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: bushbandit on September 10, 2013, 02:12:49 PM
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Just read an interesting article in a copy of "On The Road" April 2012 page 102 if anyones interested.
It goes on to say that camper trailers are being blamed for chewing up four wheel drive tracks in the sand dune country ie Simpson Desert and tracks west of Alice etc.It also says that the National Parks are getting in on the act and trying to stop Camper Trailers in the above areas.Canning Stock Route was also mentioned.Anyway the author says the major problem is drivers NOT lowering there tyre pressures on either the vehicle or the CT,which inturn is chewing up the dunes.He does defend the Camper Trailer itself but not the people who don't lower the pressures.It will only be a matter of time before CTs are banned from some of these areas. Sounds like we are doing the Simpson and Desert gathering Trips in the nick of time.
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possibly old news, but yes as tyre pressure is an absolutely fundamentally basic aspect of off-road driving, this is sadly indicative of people attempting terrain without the proper skills, knowledge or preparation that just a few years ago would have been regarded as mandatory
In my opinion - and I'm sure a few will disagree - it's good that Parks are discouraging trailers. It may make people think twice about the scope of what they are attempting, and save a whole lot of damage and may in fact kick-in a better, sustainable, management plan in the future
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I'm not sure I agree. There is no definitive evidence of how corrugations are caused. I think this is another case of the "I'm so damn tough, I use a piece of spinifex to sleep under" brigade. They see camper trailer owners as soft folks from the city with no idea about the bush/driving/real Australia.
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possibly old news, but yes as tyre pressure is an absolutely fundamentally basic aspect of off-road driving, this is sadly indicative of people attempting terrain without the proper skills, knowledge or preparation that just a few years ago would have been regarded as mandatory
In my opinion - and I'm sure a few will disagree - it's good that Parks are discouraging trailers. It may make people think twice about the scope of what they are attempting, and save a whole lot of damage and may in fact kick-in a better, sustainable, management plan in the future
What he said.
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In my opinion it is the explosion of interest in the outdoors because of the Internet ! Sites such as this one is so comprehensive in its information on so many aspects of camping and camper building ect. That fact alone gives a complete newbie the pretence to be a complete guru on their first trip! The older among us had to acquire all this knowalage over a considerable time and along the way make the mistakes that were inevitable with such ways of learning! Yeah I know I can hear the missiles incoming !!! Lol! But I mean this post in the best possible way ! I'm not putting down anyone in particular but the simple fact that some people are not driving to the conditions that confront them suggests to me that there is a sizeable minority who are time poor ! So even the smallest trip is hurried and not so well planed.
I do a lot of gold prospecting and I'm having the same problems of people gaining so much knowalage so quickly they are trying to run a marathon before the can walk a mile correctly !
So what can be done to save the outdoors from being truncated so much that the huge amount of people will make a huge impact on the areas we are corralled into by the various departments ! I have seen that happen ,small area ,lots of traffic, department closes the area down .
I see a big role for sites such as this and it falls to the more experienced of us to help correct bad behaviour or just uninformed actions with calm rational information when ever we see it happening .
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I'm not sure I agree. There is no definitive evidence of how corrugations are caused. I think this is another case of the "I'm so damn tough, I use a piece of spinifex to sleep under" brigade. They see camper trailer owners as soft folks from the city with no idea about the bush/driving/real Australia.
x2.
I am also yet to have anyone prove that lowering pressure on the "dragging" wheels of a trailer is of any benefit.
The idea behind lowering tyre pressure to absorb impact and lessen the damage to a trailer I can agree with, but as far as lowering tyre pressure for corrugations or traction ???
How can adding more drag improve traction to a non driving wheel?
That vented, I do drop tyre pressure on the camper when I hit the bad stuff, but only so I don't smash my vino bottles or crack the eggs.........
Brian
Who is more than willing to be corrected with some scientific or logical knowledge.
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I'm not sure I agree. There is no definitive evidence of how corrugations are caused. I think this is another case of the "I'm so damn tough, I use a piece of spinifex to sleep under" brigade. They see camper trailer owners as soft folks from the city with no idea about the bush/driving/real Australia.
Yes, for the reasons Murph mentioned, most travellers are city folk with all the gear and no idea. That is the problem!
Keep in mind this is from Park staff and management who don't see the 'adventure' in rescuing yet another newbie whose ambition exceeds ability, or seeing the tracks chopped to bits so they have to start placing restrictions on access
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Lowering Tyre pressure's creates a flat area front to rear on a tyre which spreads the load over a larger area and keeps the wheel from digging in, it helps to do the same with the camper. I did a test with a trailer on a beach gradually lower the pressure and driving thru soft sand to see the results. The lower the pressure the higher the trailer came out of the sand. All I can say is I have proven it works. Barnray
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x2.
I am also yet to have anyone prove that lowering pressure on the "dragging" wheels of a trailer is of any benefit.
The idea behind lowering tyre pressure to absorb impact and lessen the damage to a trailer I can agree with, but as far as lowering tyre pressure for corrugations or traction ???
How can adding more drag improve traction to a non driving wheel?
That vented, I do drop tyre pressure on the camper when I hit the bad stuff, but only so I don't smash my vino bottles or crack the eggs.........
Brian
Who is more than willing to be corrected with some scientific or logical knowledge.
You MUST drop tyre pressures on your trailer for the same reason as your tow rig!!
But no matter what, a trailer is another tonne, or more, of stuff on the terrain making its 'impact'
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Spare me. We can't all live in the desert, but that does not automatically make everyone inexperienced or inept - even if they do lack experience.
I've been on here a long time and one thing that keeps jumping out at me is how cautious most of our members are about pushing their boundaries.
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Spare me. We can't all live in the desert, but that does not automatically make everyone inexperienced or inept - even if they do lack experience.
I've been on here a long time and one thing that keeps jumping out at me is how cautious most of our members are about pushing their boundaries.
Well said Big jules. :cheers:
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You MUST drop tyre pressures on your trailer for the same reason as your tow rig!!
But no matter what, a trailer is another tonne, or more, of stuff on the terrain making its 'impact'
Why?
The reason you drop tyre pressure on your rig is to increase the contact surface area to avoid slip. This slip results in a loss of traction.
A trailer is being "rolled" over the surface. In others words dragged, not creating a thrusting force over the contact area.
Have you ever tried pushing a wheelbarrow with a flat wheel?
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Instead of arguing Mate take your trailer out the the beach and try for your self. I have and lower pressures work. Barnray
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Instead of arguing Mate take your trailer out the the beach and try for your self. I have and lower pressures work. Barnray
Not arguing at all , just trying to get some facts.
I have tried numerous times with pressures all over the place on the camper and it didn't seem to make a difference.
My camper tyres must be big enough for it not to dig in at my usual road pressure (around 30 psi)
Car pressures - well they made a huge difference.
Again - NOT arguing, just trying to work it all out.
As I said originally, no one has given me a decent argument or scientific proof for it yet. Your remark are the first I've ever heard with some decent validity to them.
My only thesis is that by lengthening the footprint it offers a more stable and solid footing on the sand and doesn't dig in a try to climb the front mound of sand so much.
This is certainly true if you run too high a pressure, but I generally try to run lower anyway.
Once you have a stable footprint that is not digging in , then going any lower "to me" seems futile.
Now seriously I am happy to be corrected and am not "trolling" or looking for an argument. Lets face it we have the electrical section for that.
I am genuinely interested in hearing what people have to say on the matter.
Hoping to be educated,
Brian
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I also get a bit sick of blaming campers. Had the same sh1t when we did the Simpson. In the end it was not that hard. Had a few challenges but the main issue was hearing those on the UHF having a laugh at how hard they could go in 2WD, they are the ones that cause the rubbish e had to get over.
I also lower the tyre pressure as it does allow the camper to float over sand, rather than drag. I also did some testing while we were on our 6 Month travel (Plenty of time on my hands) and the groves created were quite different.
Here was one crossing that we ended up going up on the right of this dune then dropping into the original track at the top.
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/Steveandviv/SimpsonDesert63mag.jpg) (http://s207.photobucket.com/user/Steveandviv/media/SimpsonDesert63mag.jpg.html)
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Your Thesis is correct and the lower pressure will work, Frazer Isl advise to run a 18psi. I tried to tow a suburu out of a sand hill at 18, all I did was go down. I dropped all tyres to 15psi and drove out and towed him out. I have had the experience. that was 14years ago. Heavier tyres need more out of them to work as well, we are talking about 15psi or less. B
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Not arguing at all , just trying to get some facts.
IHoping to be educated,
Brian
No worries Brian, pressures are almost as important on the trailer to prevent sinking of the trailer tyres into soft sand and hence a lot more drag/work for the tow car. I 'start' my sand pressures at 15psi and any trailer I'm towing usually gets below 10 psi. I'd like to do some video before-and-afters to demonstrate
In the meantime...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=512351002175115 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=512351002175115)
;D
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Another point to remember is although the trailer is being dragged so there is not going to be loss of traction on the trailers wheels, a trailer often has a different track to the tow vehicle and by reducing the pressure on the trailer will reduce how much it cuts in when creating its own track.
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We appear to have a banning mentality in this country, its disappointing but true. If we ban people there'll be a lot less impact to the country.
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The way it was explained to me is to think of those big long snow shoes so that you don't sink in the soft snow. Having a low tyre pressure helps to spread the load and prevent sinking in the sand. Banning campers doesn't solve anything. There are bad apples in every group and blaming camper trailers is just crazy.
Dave
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I have towed my camper on plenty of sand and with the right pressure you could follow and you wouldn't know I was towing. I would do way more damage with just the cruiser and pressure even just a little bit high that's when you start to get axle tramp and dig holes. I think poor wheel travel can course a loss of traction and therefor dig holes. The trailer thing is just a cheap shot. Education is the answer not banning trailers.
Rob
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We appear to have a banning mentality in this country, its disappointing but true. If we ban people there'll be a lot less impact to the country.
There is also a mentality with some people; they have a god-given right to go anywhere, with anything.
It's only in the last decade or so people have been attempting trailer treks into the Simpson and other similar areas so it's pretty easy for Parks staff etc to see who, and what, is doing the most damage. Of course they will 'manage' appropriately to keep the areas open as much as possible...but sometimes it's simply not sustainable
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My personal view on this is yes there may be some truth that some people cross the Simpson with high tyre pressures while towing campers and rut out the track but surely it would be very few and far between?
The last 10-15 years has seen an explosion of people like you and me who now go to these places because every track in Australia can now be researched to death via the net and it has made what was once a daunting task a walk in the park for most. Blame the internet, or the snow ball effect, or magazines or whatever for the massive increase in traffic. Dont blame the family man taking his wife, kids and camper for a look at their country, don't talk of shutting us out, promote us to do it more!
The opinion in regards to city folk being the most likely ones that dont know what they are doing, when you think about it is simply not true. I grew up in and still live in a town that most people would consider to be very small and country and like all small town country kids we spent our youth bashing old cars and bikes around paddocks or back streets or whatever but that has not given me or any of my mates any more information on whats right and wrong when it comes to desert driving.
City folk are just as informed and have the same ability, arguably better ability as far internet connection, to research the rights and wrongs of these things as the country people.
It comes down to experience and at times laziness in my opinion. An experienced traveller/4w driver/sand driver will air down his/her tyres with out batting an eye lid. An in experienced, regardless if they are a city living person or country person may forget or think its not yet necessary because until they get that experience they have only read about these things and are yet to see for themselves the benefit of knowing the correct pressures for the conditions.
As for all these great places being closed off to us because of a minority in society who think we are permanently damaging the environment, fair dinkum the argument could go on for ever.
The Simpson for instance has for the sake of argument one (yes I know there are more) main track cut through it by vehicles and has done since pretty much since Reg took the Patrol across ;) The Simpson is large and has a few tracks cut through it, so what? It is sand and sand moves with the wind. Yes I know as long as people are driving across it the sand will never reclaim the dunes on the track but is it really an environmental issue? I dont think so, its like a needle in a hay stack.
Let us see our own country, let us take our kids and show them what this great land is all about, promote tourism in our own country, the small towns need us and we need them. Discourage any talk of banning campers, get on our side and stick up for people who want to take campers across. Sure do your best to educate people about doing it with the least possible footprint (or ironically a larger footprint with lower tyre pressures!), but don't stand up for closing us out, its not on.
I understand your going to get a very small section of society that will go beyond what the greater majority of us would consider common sense and start tearing up camp grounds, or driving over tables, or generally hooning around and giving us decent folk a bad name, but you get that in all facets of recreation. You always will unfortunately but they are a very small minority. We need to stand up for us, being the majority who simply want access to our own country.
Written and authorised by me ;)
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When members of our club did part of the CSR, they heard talking over the UHF of a group who couldn't get over a hill.
One of our member asked them what their tyre pressure was. The answer was that they dropped them a lot, to 35 psi..........
Our member told them to drop them to 20 and try again.
Silence on the other side. Then they came back: That low? I will roll my tyre of the rim.
It is education.
I have run 6 psi in my tyres to get up a hill. When I was up, I pumped the tyres back to 15 psi.
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There is also a mentality with some people; they have a god-given right to go anywhere, with anything.
It's only in the last decade or so people have been attempting trailer treks into the Simpson and other similar areas so it's pretty easy for Parks staff etc to see who, and what, is doing the most damage. Of course they will 'manage' appropriately to keep the areas open as much as possible...but sometimes it's simply not sustainable
agree
My personal view on this is yes there may be some truth that some people cross the Simpson with high tyre pressures while towing campers and rut out the track but surely it would be very few and far between?
but its a growing problem...
and you know what happens to areas/trackswhen the problem gets too much*..
It is education.
(http://www.sarahsaturdiy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/We-Have-A-Winner.jpg)
*Definition of much: COSTS MORE MONEY....
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"As for all these great places being closed off to us because of a minority in society who think we are permanently damaging the environment, fair dinkum the argument could go on for ever"
Sadly this is the way its going the fools of society which are a minority are spoiling it for everyone .Example I just came across is out at MT Connor on the way to Ullaru.I wanted to camp out there overnight as you used to be able to once you got through some hurdles with the owners,so I phoned them the other day only to be told "We had to stop the camping as fools were going out and throwing dynamite down holes and shooting cattle etc fair dinkum some people are gooses anyway now non of us can go out unless you want to pay $300 each for a guided tour.
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"As for all these great places being closed off to us because of a minority in society who think we are permanently damaging the environment, fair dinkum the argument could go on for ever"
Sadly this is the way its going the fools of society which are a minority are spoiling it for everyone .Example I just came across is out at MT Connor on the way to Ullaru.I wanted to camp out there overnight as you used to be able to once you got through some hurdles with the owners,so I phoned them the other day only to be told "We had to stop the camping as fools were going out and throwing dynamite down holes and shooting cattle etc fair dinkum some people are gooses anyway now non of us can go out unless you want to pay $300 each for a guided tour.
Unbelievable, I read a notice about some 'undesirables' stopping camping out near Mt Conner when we were out there last but I didnt know what had happened. Whats wrong with some people.
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GeeTee, so you don't think the increase in damage to tracks is in any way due to the increase in the number of people driving over them? Regardless of towing. Any increase in usage is going to provide a proportional increase in damage. Sometimes this is sustainable sometimes not.
Not sure what the answer is but I'm sure limiting the total number of vehicles crossing would be to reduce the damage however that may not be the most desirable solution. As would reducing the people who drive like idiots. Education will only help those interested in being educated.
Possibly you could need to attend/pass a course to gain a permit, that's one way of ensuring most people have had exposure to the facts without shutting down and area. At the end of the day, stoopid people will still be stoopid people.
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One issue that I have noticed with sand damage is the weight of the trailers that some people are trying to tow. The cars are aften struggling and wheel spinning regardless of what the pressures are.
A car with a maximum capacity of say 3000kg for example is not going to be able to tow 3 tons over the Simpson. If you keep reducing the weight, you will eventually reach a point where it will do it with a degree of difficulty. As you go down further, it will eventually become easy. The question is how to you work out the right weight camper in the first place for different road surfaces?
Just to further complicate the issue: I sent an email to Toyota asking about off road towing capacities a few years ago when I bought my Hilux. Part of the reply said DO NOT TOW AT ALL in soft dry sand.
The advertised maximum towing capacities are usually for highway conditions and should be continually reduced as road surfaces deteriorate and soft sand would have to be about the worst. There are far too many variables involved to try and list maximums on all surfaces which unfortunately does not help owners.
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Well I have done a few desert trips with my off road camper, Including the simpson and had no problems getting over any of the dunes. At the time we were driving a 4.2 naturally aspirated patrol with custom camper, Truck tyres at 16psi camper at 12psi we had no trouble crossing any of the dunes.
There was a bloke with a ute and a slide on camper traveling ahead of us that was ripping the crap out of the dunes because he refused to lower his tyre pressures we tried to tell him but were told to mind our own f*&^%ing business . he was running 45psi in his tyres. So we just drove around him after a while and left him to his own devices. On the same trip we were at popels corner and it was very very windy, there were two pajeros left about 20 mins before our two vehicles left, once we had gone around the lake then started heading east again we could NOT even see there wheel tracks on the windward side of the dunes totally gone the only way we could work out were the track was by the slight swale in the dunes and a line clear of vegetation. and that was only 20 or so minutes.
In the late 70's I was driving an ex Nato 8 wheel drive MAN truck pulling two trailers of drilling equipment around the deserts some days the wind would wipe out a track in 5 minutes, because we were forging new tracks there was no swale or depression from constant travel so the track would be completely gone.
My point is that no mater what damage might be done to a dune today it could be totally blown away by the wind tomorrow, of even in an hr or so.
This talk banning campers is a load of crap IMO. May be they should have a ranger that checks every one tyre pressures before they go past a certan point so as EVERYONE is doing the right thing.
OK rant over ;D ;D
Cheers
Rat
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GeeTee, so you don't think the increase in damage to tracks is in any way due to the increase in the number of people driving over them? Regardless of towing. Any increase in usage is going to provide a proportional increase in damage. Sometimes this is sustainable sometimes not.
At the end of the day, stoopid people will still be stoopid people.
yes of course it does. But there is disproportionally more damage done by people towing. Those two extra wheels not being driven, yet holding up more than 500kg each, has an impact. And it's a shemozzle to turn around and/or recover a trailer
In the old days, no-one took a trailer over terrain such as the Simpson because the small number of experienced people (pioneers?) who operated vehicle in this type of terrain knew it was a silly idea.
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??
How does a CT destroy the dune environment?? It goes wherever the hell the vehicle tows it!?
State Govts fishing for extra revenue I say
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My personal view on this is yes there may be some truth that some people cross the Simpson with high tyre pressures while towing campers and rut out the track but surely it would be very few and far between?
The last 10-15 years has seen an explosion of people like you and me who now go to these places because every track in Australia can now be researched to death via the net and it has made what was once a daunting task a walk in the park for most. Blame the internet, or the snow ball effect, or magazines or whatever for the massive increase in traffic. Dont blame the family man taking his wife, kids and camper for a look at their country, don't talk of shutting us out, promote us to do it more!
The opinion in regards to city folk being the most likely ones that dont know what they are doing, when you think about it is simply not true. I grew up in and still live in a town that most people would consider to be very small and country and like all small town country kids we spent our youth bashing old cars and bikes around paddocks or back streets or whatever but that has not given me or any of my mates any more information on whats right and wrong when it comes to desert driving.
City folk are just as informed and have the same ability, arguably better ability as far internet connection, to research the rights and wrongs of these things as the country people.
It comes down to experience and at times laziness in my opinion. An experienced traveller/4w driver/sand driver will air down his/her tyres with out batting an eye lid. An in experienced, regardless if they are a city living person or country person may forget or think its not yet necessary because until they get that experience they have only read about these things and are yet to see for themselves the benefit of knowing the correct pressures for the conditions.
As for all these great places being closed off to us because of a minority in society who think we are permanently damaging the environment, fair dinkum the argument could go on for ever.
The Simpson for instance has for the sake of argument one (yes I know there are more) main track cut through it by vehicles and has done since pretty much since Reg took the Patrol across ;) The Simpson is large and has a few tracks cut through it, so what? It is sand and sand moves with the wind. Yes I know as long as people are driving across it the sand will never reclaim the dunes on the track but is it really an environmental issue? I dont think so, its like a needle in a hay stack.
Let us see our own country, let us take our kids and show them what this great land is all about, promote tourism in our own country, the small towns need us and we need them. Discourage any talk of banning campers, get on our side and stick up for people who want to take campers across. Sure do your best to educate people about doing it with the least possible footprint (or ironically a larger footprint with lower tyre pressures!), but don't stand up for closing us out, its not on.
I understand your going to get a very small section of society that will go beyond what the greater majority of us would consider common sense and start tearing up camp grounds, or driving over tables, or generally hooning around and giving us decent folk a bad name, but you get that in all facets of recreation. You always will unfortunately but they are a very small minority. We need to stand up for us, being the majority who simply want access to our own country.
Written and authorised by me ;)
Well done. That is one of the best things I have ever read supporting what us sensible people do. Drive, camp, explore lightly - everyone including nature will benefit from it.
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How does a CT destroy the dune environment?? It goes wherever the hell the vehicle tows it!?
State Govts fishing for extra revenue I say
No-one is accusing CTs of exclusively destroying the planet however the extra effort required from the tow vehicle for dragging an extra 750kg (or more for the real muppets!) of extra gear over sandy terrain, results in far more churning/damage than just a single vehicle.
Add aspects of incompetence such as untrained/unskilled drivers with inappropriate tyre pressures and things get churned up real quick.
This impedes progress... Sometimes, Parks etc have to come out and assist.
Anyone with basic 4WD training or a skerrick of experience with arduous terrain driving will already understand this
Hope this helps
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The Leyland brothers towed a trailer across the simpson back in the 60's.
Their book "where dead men lie" talks of their trek.
On another forum there was a comment that the rangers beleive that the overloaded cars running high pressures do most of the damage.
We were out on the Anne Beadell in July came across some people just starting out. The corrugations were horriffic. I asked what tyre pressure they were running 35 was the answer I suggested around 20 as we were running that and the corrogations were not as harsh. The answer was mate I am carryaing a bit of a load so thats as low as they would go. We waved goodbye and continued on our way.
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No-one is accusing CTs of exclusively destroying the planet however the extra effort required from the tow vehicle for dragging an extra 750kg (or more for the real muppets!) of extra gear over sandy terrain, results in far more churning/damage than just a single vehicle.
Muppets aye, good on ya!!!!
My trailer weighs over 750kg and also towed across the Simpson last year, tryes 13 psi cold and can assure you there was next to no damage by us.
Strongly disagree with you, there was a convoy of vehicles last year all running over 20psi and they were struggling as I could hear over the UHF, another bloke was bragging that he had done most the French line in 2WD.
The majority of 4WDs "without trailers" are running over inflated tyres but I dont feel its my place to say to them look at all the damage your doing!
I think to my self leave them to it and I will enjoy the crossing with the comfort of the trailer.
All this talk about damage, Its a sand track not a highway!
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Pling, it's good that you had the sense/experience to run 13psi - and like you, I hate hearing "Maaate, me old Crooza did it easy in 2WD!!" stories - but there's no arguing with the fact that, all things being equal, a combo with two 'dead' wheels will turn the tyres, sink, become bogged, etc, before a single 4x4 vehicle.
This is a factor taken into consideration by police, Parks and other parties when deciding on access to areas and a reason that many experienced travellers don't tow in arduous conditions.
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Pling, it's good that you had the sense/experience to run 13psi - and like you, I hate hearing "Maaate, me old Crooza did it easy in 2WD!!" stories - but there's no arguing with the fact that, all things being equal, a combo with two 'dead' wheels will turn the tyres, sink, become bogged, etc, before a single 4x4 vehicle.
This is a factor taken into consideration by police, Parks and other parties when deciding on access to areas and a reason that many experienced travellers don't tow in arduous conditions.
I think more to my point of view is there are more vehicles crossing the Simpson than vehicles with trailers and I would bet my left testie that more than 80% are running hot pressures over 20psi, these guys are the ones doing the damage!
I will admit I was quite apprehensive of towing in the Simpson considering all the hype about, but when I got out there wheel spinning really was not an issue nor was taking dangerous run ups at dunes which some vehicles were doing.
Banning the trailers will not help the so called "damage" to the sand...... trying to inforce "all" vehicles to lower pressures to an appropriate range would, but I have no Idea how you could police that!
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yeah a very difficult-to-manage situation. It's not like the park rangers can insist on (for eg:) demonstrations of competency with a tyre pressure gauge :(
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i cam across two campers, they were travelling west to east and appeared to be doing the right thing
i crossed most of the way in 2nd high range.....rears at 25 and fronts at 18. pretty much no wheel spin
two tag along groups followed us out of birdsville.....i was talking to one guy in the caravan park and he mention he had never been off road before and the prado was only three weeks old. i heard planty of chat across the two groups trying to work out tyre pressure as a few were getting stuck on nearly every dune....
three days later i picked up a frustrated tour leader trying to explain why they needed to increase there tyre pressures for the run ionto my dare.......somewhere between sand and hi-way, one guy just didnt get it
i'm not sure i would ever tow a trailer across the simpson...two much effort to be packing up every morning
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i cam across two campers, they were travelling west to east and appeared to be doing the right thing
i crossed most of the way in 2nd high range.....rears at 25 and fronts at 18. pretty much no wheel spin
two tag along groups followed us out of birdsville.....i was talking to one guy in the caravan park and he mention he had never been off road before and the prado was only three weeks old. i heard planty of chat across the two groups trying to work out tyre pressure as a few were getting stuck on nearly every dune....
three days later i picked up a frustrated tour leader trying to explain why they needed to increase there tyre pressures for the run ionto my dare.......somewhere between sand and hi-way, one guy just didnt get it
i'm not sure i would ever tow a trailer across the simpson...two much effort to be packing up every morning
With three kids and a tent thats 5 sleeping bags to pack up 5 air mattresses to roll up, plus all cooking gear etc etc.
We have a complete set up in just over 10 mins and a pack up just under 30 mins we cant do that with our old southern cross tent.
Since buying the camper Nov 2011 we now wonder what took us so long to swap over.
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With three kids and a tent thats 5 sleeping bags to pack up 5 air mattresses to roll up, plus all cooking gear etc etc.
We have a complete set up in just over 10 mins and a pack up just under 30 mins we cant do that with our old southern cross tent.
Since buying the camper Nov 2011 we now wonder what took us so long to swap over.
i do overnighters so i guess my comment about to much work to pack up is not really right, its probably more dragging 1300kg over hundreds of dunes.....we are off to broken hill next year for two weeks, one four night, two two nights and the rest are overnighters.
i have never timed how long, its probably less than 30min for set up and 30min for pack up if thats all we concentrated on. ours is a soft floor, well actually a RTT on a custom trailer. just thinking about it from wake up to on the road.....having a relaxed breakfast would be somewhere around the hour...maybe 1hr15min, would depend on the kiddies, if all five bikes are off the trailer etc etc
our three kids sleep in a tent.........well away from the camper trailer. they pretty much look after there own stuff, in fact they are about to start using swags as they can see it quicker
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Pling, it's good that you had the sense/experience to run 13psi - and like you, I hate hearing "Maaate, me old Crooza did it easy in 2WD!!" stories - but there's no arguing with the fact that, all things being equal, a combo with two 'dead' wheels will turn the tyres, sink, become bogged, etc, before a single 4x4 vehicle.
This is a factor taken into consideration by police, Parks and other parties when deciding on access to areas and a reason that many experienced travellers don't tow in arduous conditions.
As seen as 97% of all Simpson crossing are with out campers how do you figure 'we' are the ones destroying the track. I can't stand these comments as they are wrong. Most camper owners do actually know how to tow and that is why they do these remote trips. It is the single car warriors that think they are great. I've seen more damage done but idiots that don't know what they are doing but seldom is it one who tows.
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i do overnighters so i guess my comment about to much work to pack up is not really right, its probably more dragging 1300kg over hundreds of dunes.....we are off to broken hill next year for two weeks, one four night, two two nights and the rest are overnighters.
i have never timed how long, its probably less than 30min for set up and 30min for pack up if thats all we concentrated on. ours is a soft floor, well actually a RTT on a custom trailer. just thinking about it from wake up to on the road.....having a relaxed breakfast would be somewhere around the hour...maybe 1hr15min, would depend on the kiddies, if all five bikes are off the trailer etc etc
our three kids sleep in a tent.........well away from the camper trailer. they pretty much look after there own stuff, in fact they are about to start using swags as they can see it quicker
Weeds. It was the most amazing experience to be in the middle of the Simpson and while we made this part of our 6 Month journey to Broome I would never take it back. Packing the camper was only as hard as how much you unpack. We made up a quick camp set up and only unpacked the basics. Some thin amazing about cooking a few snags with the kids and a cold beer and no one as far as for - ever ;D Hope you do give it ago some time if you get the chance.
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Weeds. It was the most amazing experience to be in the middle of the Simpson and while we made this part of our 6 Month journey to Broome I would never take it back. Packing the camper was only as hard as how much you unpack. We made up a quick camp set up and only unpacked the basics. Some thin amazing about cooking a few snags with the kids and a cold beer and no one as far as for - ever ;D Hope you do give it ago some time if you get the chance.
i crossed the simpson six or so years ago...........plenty of other places to see before heading back, although the bride is keen to holiday out that way
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i crossed the simpson six or so years ago...........plenty of other places to see before heading back, although the bride is keen to holiday out that way
No worries, just read it as though you hadn't. I also won't do it again for a while now with access to CSR areas I'm keen to do a bit out that way.
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As seen as 97% of all Simpson crossing are with out campers how do you figure 'we' are the ones destroying the track. I can't stand these comments as they are wrong. Most camper owners do actually know how to tow and that is why they do these remote trips. It is the single car warriors that think they are great. I've seen more damage done but idiots that don't know what they are doing but seldom is it one who tows.
SteveandViv, where is that 97 percent statistic from? That seems extraordinarily low compared to what can be seen at many 'destinations' these days. If that stat is correct then banning trailers - as is being considered here and elsewhere - will affect only three percent of travellers.
You - and I - may be confident and competent with trailer use but I can't agree that "most" (as you claim) trailer owners can tow competently in arduous terrain. Through my eyes, many are beginners and unfortunately the comfort and pride in a big, shiny, checkerplate-clad camper trailer with knobby tyres and 'full-off-road' stickers gives them a false sense of security about their ability in arduous terrain.
Buying the hardware is not a substitute for training and experience - and in many cases, common sense.
The very small availability - and take-up rate - of off-road towing/trailer courses compared to the number of trailers sold suggests there is an enormous gap in education of trailer owners.
As well as an increase in track degradation, situations such as vehicle boggings where assistance is required, mechanical failure of suspension etc etc, is higher for trailers and trailer combos than for single vehicles.
Combine these elements and it's easy to see why the managers of these lands could consider banning of trailers.
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One issue that I have noticed with sand damage is the weight of the trailers that some people are trying to tow. The cars are aften struggling and wheel spinning regardless of what the pressures are.
Well said spot.
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SteveandViv, where is that 97 percent statistic from? That seems extraordinarily low compared to what can be seen at many 'destinations' these days. If that stat is correct then banning trailers - as is being considered here and elsewhere - will affect only three percent of travellers.
You - and I - may be confident and competent with trailer use but I can't agree that "most" (as you claim) trailer owners can tow competently in arduous terrain. Through my eyes, many are beginners and unfortunately the comfort and pride in a big, shiny, checkerplate-clad camper trailer with knobby tyres and 'full-off-road' stickers gives them a false sense of security about their ability in arduous terrain.
Buying the hardware is not a substitute for training and experience - and in many cases, common sense.
The very small availability - and take-up rate - of off-road towing/trailer courses compared to the number of trailers sold suggests there is an enormous gap in education of trailer owners.
As well as an increase in track degradation, situations such as vehicle boggings where assistance is required, mechanical failure of suspension etc etc, is higher for trailers and trailer combos than for single vehicles.
Combine these elements and it's easy to see why the managers of these lands could consider banning of trailers.
That will do me, so now I need a off road trailer towing course under my belt before I'm deemed competent or confident to tow my shiny checker plate clad ( what the hell is wrong with checker plate?) off road camper trailer along the beach or through the sand dunes?? I'm double stuffed because I also now live in the city, although I may have learnt something in my years living in the Narrandera, Scone, Moree and Nyngan areas, that something may even be common sense?
Perhaps those who have deemed that they are the keepers of the knowledge and believe they have the right to dictate who requires education can let me in on the secret before I hurt myself, my family and destroy the country I love.
I'll go and jump into my cotton wool lined box before I injure my self........stuff I haven't been trained in that either!
Cheers,
Disco teddy.
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I returned from a Simpson trip about 5 weeks ago and yes I towed a trailer which weighs in at about 8-900kg.
My opinion is if you do the right thing and lower your pressures all round your life will be easier, you'll also make life easier for others that follow you.
I haven't done a lot of back-to-back testing to confirm but my experience is lower tyre pressures on the trailer in soft sand does make a noticeable difference. The longer footprint the lower pressures provide lets the trailer float on the sand. My opinion is the increased rolling resistance of a low pressure tyre is offset (significantly) by the increased footprint.
One of the biggest issues I see with trailers is weight of some of them, when loaded. I'd hazard a guess many trailers people are towing out there exceed 1000kg and to be honest I'd hate to be pulling that much weight in soft sand. If you pull a heavy trailer in 2wd or 4WD with highway pressures all you do is use more fuel and increase damage to your vehicle and the track in my experience.
In terms of track damage the biggest problem I see with high(er) pressures is the way the track seems to get scalloped after the tyres dig a hole, grab traction, lose traction, dig a hole, grab traction etc..... This usually results in opposing holes which means you either need to drive flatout to maintain momentum or try to walk up the dune slowly. Most of the dunes I've driven you could walk up at a controlled and comfortable pace. A smaller number of longer, steeper dunes with this type of damage you couldn't take this approach as you would bog in soft sand toward the top of the dun even with low pressures and 4WD.
This would mean you'd need to reverse back and hit the dune with speed and hope for the best, far from a comfortable ride and often hard on the vehicle, occupants and other contents. Backing a trailer in soft sand can be a real bugger too, even if you can back a trailer well you'll often have problems at one time or another.
One to tyre pressures - we had six vehicles on our trip and half were not convinced about low pressures particularly when on the dirt. The first puncture they had and then the first dune they could get up easily also changed their outlook on the value of letting air out of your tyres. The comments in sand were along the line of "*hit, that makes it easier". Even with low pressures you still need to resort to speed to get you up and over a dune, you don't need to do it as often though.
The concerns most people seem to have about low pressures are:
- I'll roll the tyre off the rim
- I'll get a puncture
- There are others, I just can't think of them at the minute
With the lower pressures we were running we had NO tyre problems, as soon as people lifted their pressures (on fast dirt in particular) they blew tyres, I was one of them BTW. The roads the tyres blew on were better than many desert tracks we drove too, for those of you who have driven from Mt Dare to Dalhousie will know bad some desert roads can get.
My top tip is to adjust and check your pressures when hot, not cold. For the desert we were down to 18psi HOT, my trailer was down to 13psi. When I did Big Red I was down to 14 and 9. Another thing you should try is sway bar disconnects, particularly on live axle vehicles. I drive a Jeep so this is a common accessory, when employed it makes the front end much more flexible/compliant which results in a much smoother ride with less side-to-side rocking and rolling.
I hope they don't ban trailers as I'm of the opinion you need to tow a trailer if you want to keep your vehicle legal. I'm mostly concerned about overloading as many 4WDs have vey small payloads, 600kg seems to be the norm. With a trailer you've got a fighting chance of keeping the vehicle weight to realistic and safer number.
If you are going to tow a trailer in the desert, think seriously about what you take with you to keep your weights as low as possible.
As for corrugations, there is research out there if you want to look, the findings are interesting, here is one link I found quickly:
http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/nicolas.taberlet/washboard/ (http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/nicolas.taberlet/washboard/)
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Well said discoteddy, I'm with you all the way.
Good points bodgie makes too
macca
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That will do me, so now I need a off road trailer towing course under my belt before I'm deemed competent or confident to tow my shiny checker plate clad ( what the hell is wrong with checker plate?) off road camper trailer along the beach or through the sand dunes?? I'm double stuffed because I also now live in the city, although I may have learnt something in my years living in the Narrandera, Scone, Moree and Nyngan areas, that something may even be common sense?
Perhaps those who have deemed that they are the keepers of the knowledge and believe they have the right to dictate who requires education can let me in on the secret before I hurt myself, my family and destroy the country I love.
I'll go and jump into my cotton wool lined box before I injure my self........stuff I haven't been trained in that either!
Cheers,
Disco teddy.
It's no secret Discoteddy, it's common sense.
If someone has absolutely no experience with towing and has just bought a new camper trailer and are "Gunna do the Simmo mate!!" then as in most aspects of life, a course is a good way to quickly and easily learn the skills required to become competent with aspects of towing such as suitability of equipment, tyre pressures... this lack of competence and the resulting damage is largely what this thread is about.
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From what I have observed is 13psi cold rechecked at lunch were at 15- 16 psi so If your setting tyres 18psi cold than you are creeping up over 20psi and you "will" wheel spin in the hot sand. Not saying you couldn't cross with tyres over 20, but If its track degradation that we are talking about then these small numbers make all the difference...Trailer or no trailer!
The Tambo Omeo on this particular trip at a guess prob weighed in at 1.1 -1.2 tonne, running 13psi cold I did not need to take dangerous uncomfortable run ups and did not wheel spin. If I could not get over a dune It wasnt because I was bogged It was because I read the terrain wrong and was in the wrong gear selection between high range or low range.
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Re: Banning trailers in the desert - What a load a waffle, the country is dry, there isn't much moisture holding the topsoils together. We haven't had much rain this year. Sounds like some new fifo government official, 3 months into their 2 year contract trying to make a name for themselves.
I'll let you in a secret, when there are whirlwinds strong enough to lift dirt into the sky, it means the place is pretty dry and the sand/soil particles have not binded well, the next sand storm does more "damage" than any tourists on the desert tracks.
For the record we have had hundred of whirlwinds from mid-last year
As to PSI - What ever rocks your boat. After many years in the desert I can't say adjusting pressures does much for me, my personal view is it became trendy when all the over sized swamp tyres became fashionable and the buyers were justifying their overpriced purchases by adjusting pressures for each terrain they encountered ;D
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Spurio,
What PSI do run or recommend for desert driving?
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Re: Banning trailers in the desert - What a load a waffle, the country is dry, there isn't much moisture holding the topsoils together. We haven't had much rain this year. Sounds like some new fifo government official, 3 months into their 2 year contract trying to make a name for themselves.
Not going to touch this one.
I'll let you in a secret, when there are whirlwinds strong enough to lift dirt into the sky, it means the place is pretty dry and the sand/soil particles have not binded well, the next sand storm does more "damage" than any tourists on the desert tracks.
For the record we have had hundred of whirlwinds from mid-last year
A whirlwind will lift topsoil but it will not rut a track or dig a hole in a track like and overinflated tyre on a poorly driven vehicle will.
As to PSI - What ever rocks your boat. After many years in the desert I can't say adjusting pressures does much for me, my personal view is it became trendy when all the over sized swamp tyres became fashionable and the buyers were justifying their overpriced purchases by adjusting pressures for each terrain they encountered ;D
FWIW, I've driven on sand on Stradbroke, Moreton and Fraser Islands, Stockton Beach, Cape York and the Simpson Desert and surrounds.
My view is you mustn't be very observant.
I have always found lower tyre pressures in all of the sand I've driven in with varied vehicles with varied tyre sizes from 7.50x16 through to 245/65/17s.
The FACT is high pressures will always make life harder in sand.
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SteveandViv, where is that 97 percent statistic from? That seems extraordinarily low compared to what can be seen at many 'destinations' these days. If that stat is correct then banning trailers - as is being considered here and elsewhere - will affect only three percent of travellers.
You - and I - may be confident and competent with trailer use but I can't agree that "most" (as you claim) trailer owners can tow competently in arduous terrain. Through my eyes, many are beginners and unfortunately the comfort and pride in a big, shiny, checkerplate-clad camper trailer with knobby tyres and 'full-off-road' stickers gives them a false sense of security about their ability in arduous terrain.
Buying the hardware is not a substitute for training and experience - and in many cases, common sense.
The very small availability - and take-up rate - of off-road towing/trailer courses compared to the number of trailers sold suggests there is an enormous gap in education of trailer owners.
As well as an increase in track degradation, situations such as vehicle boggings where assistance is required, mechanical failure of suspension etc etc, is higher for trailers and trailer combos than for single vehicles.
Combine these elements and it's easy to see why the managers of these lands could consider banning of trailers.
I was speaking with the Manager at Keep Nat Park and he is mates with a ranger of the Simpson. It echos the stats that come out of the owners of the Canning as I speak to them a lot while in the area for work. It maybe a bit more or less but it's not a lot. As for the competency statement, I do mean those on here where is have yet to see a anyone who I would not share that trip with. There will be some that maybe should not do the trip but how would Dave from Mt Dare rescues more cars than campers 8)
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Re: Banning trailers in the desert - What a load a waffle, the country is dry, there isn't much moisture holding the topsoils together. We haven't had much rain this year. Sounds like some new fifo government official, 3 months into their 2 year contract trying to make a name for themselves.
I'll let you in a secret, when there are whirlwinds strong enough to lift dirt into the sky, it means the place is pretty dry and the sand/soil particles have not binded well, the next sand storm does more "damage" than any tourists on the desert tracks.
For the record we have had hundred of whirlwinds from mid-last year
As to PSI - What ever rocks your boat. After many years in the desert I can't say adjusting pressures does much for me, my personal view is it became trendy when all the over sized swamp tyres became fashionable and the buyers were justifying their overpriced purchases by adjusting pressures for each terrain they encountered ;D
Disagree entirely about tyre pressures, if you haven't found much difference then I would say you either don't change them enough or don't do enough 4wding in a variety of terrains.
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I'm not going to enter the debate as we all have different views on tyre pressures like we all have different views on our respective tugs, trailers, fridges, tyre brands etc.
What I would like to point out tho, is the pic a few posts above........
How susceptible is that sidewall to staking at that low pressure especially in burnt mulga country or rocky country.
My view, fine for the beach, not the desert.
Food for thought.
What you do is purely your choice as we all learn by education or experience.
As for CTs being banned. Doesn't affect me so therefore I don't really care as long as the individual is doing the right thing (and staying on the bitumen ;D ) only joking, only joking........... :-* ;D
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I'm not going to enter the debate as we all have different views on tyre pressures like we all have different views on our respective tugs, trailers, fridges, tyre brands etc.
Haven't you already done that by replying to this thread????
What I would like to point out tho, is the pic a few posts above........
How susceptible is that sidewall to staking at that low pressure especially in burnt mulga country or rocky country.
My view, fine for the beach, not the desert.
Food for thought.
My food for thought.
In my experience a sidewall is vulnerable regardless of the pressure in the tyre. However saying that I've personally had less problems with staking of sidewalls or damage from gibbers etc with lower pressures.
If we use a balloon analogy it is harder to burst an under inflated balloon than it is a fully inflated balloon. Try it of you don't believe me.
All of the tyres I've had punctures in have been at highway or close to highway pressure. The same tyres at reduced pressures have never had a problem, and this has usually been in much tougher gibber country. Even Coopers, yes Coopers with high pressures get punctures, FACT!!!
If you are getting regular punctures at highway pressures on dirt road and you are prepared to listen to heard earned experience it costs nothing but some time to drop your pressures 15-20%.
Be brave and give it a a go, in my experience you WILL be rewarded with less punctures.
If you don't believe me on how much of a difference tyre pressures make, go for a drive to Stockton Beach and see how far you get with 30PSI in your tyres. If you don't want to make it past the entrance track leave your tyres at their highway pressures.
Jason
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Spurio,
What PSI do run or recommend for desert driving?
Sorry mate don't carry a pressure gauge with me. I look/kick the tyre.
For sealed roads I have the length of approximately 3 lugs of tread in contact with the road, for off road driving I have about 5-6 length of tread. But never run a tyre lower than half the height of the lugs on the sidewall. i.e. I think the tyre a few posts previous is a little too low and likely to get a bit of gidgee or other sharp through it.
I check pressures maybe every 3 months if I'm lucky. I drive mostly on high speed dirt roads, tracks and xcountry, all year round. This gets me all over the tourist drives and back again, touchwood, I haven't had a flat for a good 12 months.
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So you don't really let tyres down or experience wide varieties if terrain to really know what a huge difference tyre pressures play in increasing off-road performance and decreasing strain in your vehicle and impact on the tracks
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I'm very fortunately that I've spend most of my life in very remote areas in the various terrains our flying spaceship has to offer. OCD on tyre pressure has never been a big issue for me.
My views are tyre pressures are way over rated for the legal and insured 4wdriving capabilities most people do on public roads.
The 4wd accessories industry, has created just another placebo effect on individuals who buy into this marketing hype >:D
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Sorry mate don't carry a pressure gauge with me. I look/kick the tyre.
For sealed roads I have the length of approximately 3 lugs of tread in contact with the road, for off road driving I have about 5-6 length of tread. But never run a tyre lower than half the height of the lugs on the sidewall. i.e. I think the tyre a few posts previous is a little too low and likely to get a bit of gidgee or other sharp through it.
I check pressures maybe every 3 months if I'm lucky. I drive mostly on high speed dirt roads, tracks and xcountry, all year round. This gets me all over the tourist drives and back again, touchwood, I haven't had a flat for a good 12 months.
If you measure the difference in pressure I'd reckon you'd be on, or close to the 15% mark.
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What I would like to point out tho, is the pic a few posts above........
How susceptible is that sidewall to staking at that low pressure especially in burnt mulga country or rocky country.
Burnt Mulga country or rocky country yes the side walls are susceptible I would agree......but I thought we were talking sand and towing in the Simpson hence where the pic was taken and what worked for us???
In my opinion the trade off for having excellent grip in sand (low pressures) Is you have to be mindful of what your tyres are running over.