MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: scarps on July 14, 2013, 09:47:11 AM
-
I live 50km's north of Melbourne in what's best described as a fast growing semi rural community. At some stage in the next 10 years I have no doubt we will become an outer suburb.
Our country market is best described as a local community event run by the local Scout Group as a non profit organisation. Like many communities, it's the once a month event where many of us catch up for a coffee, chat, dog sniff and browse/shop the market stalls.
For the last 10 years it's always been a dog friendly event, and I've no doubt there's been a few dog bristling moments, but was very surprised when approached yesterday by one of the organisers and handed a notice that my dog is not welcome to next month's market. When I asked why, I was advised that there have been complaints to the local council about dogs being at the market.
The note went on to say that a dog holding area would be set up for next month manned by some of the scout organisers, however no responsibility would be taken for my dog if in the holding area.
As a semi rural we have a great council who work hard to keep in touch and they even have a dept within council set up to support our animals. If interested, you can checkout their FB page - Animals of Mitchell Shire. I enquired last night what council's stance was on this notice and it was confirmed that there had been some complaints. I was also given some other info from a council bylaw perspective, but am waiting on further info to some further questions I asked about the use of the council land on which the market is being held (an open community park in the centre of town). Generally the council response has been very good and supportive, but constrained. The also asked me for any ideas I might have that could be alternate options to this situation.
Now I've been going to this market for many years with my very ferocious :-) Scottish Terrier (well she is a Scot after all and her excited tail wag could snap an achilles tendon), but I've only ever seen dogs large and small on short leads and being well controlled. As stated, there has been the odd bark/bristling incident, but only ever short lived and well controlled. Noone could advise me when asked if anyone had ever been hurt by a dog incident?
So, do I push this point as far as I can and see if I can get a solution for other local dog owners, or do I accept the inevitable and write this monthly activity off my to do list? Thoughts?
-
Hi
For the past few years I have managed an area where animal control is one section. This is always a difficult area to find a happy balance. The community seems split down the middle. I only recently reviewed the entire dog management policy and it was a god awful experience. For some reason many dog owners don't get the fact that many people are not interested nor want to interact with dogs at any level.
From a legal perspective the council would be on a hiding to nothing if they had complaints and still allowed them if someone was bitten. What I would suggest is asking them to set aside an area as a designated dog exercise area where you can take them at the markets. Have some water and posts to tie them up to while u shop. That way dog people can interact without annoying others.
I really dislike dogs at these events simply because I have a small child whose face is at bite level and I get tired of telling dog owners to keep their dog away. Too many think its lovely for their dog to lick or jump on my kids. "He won't hurt you dear". Crap. Every dog can bite and the vast majority of dog bites our section gets are from terriers.
If you need some detailed advice from a council perspective shoot me a pm.
-
Seems crazy to me. I am a semi-regular attender at the Lancefield community market, held on the wide median strip / park in Main Street, and the dogs of those there are no problem, in fact add to the 'vibe' of the event. That is from the perspective of a long time non dog owner.
From a legal perspective, I can't see how there is any difference to walking a dog in public anywhere else, so long as it is leashed and under control. Indeed, unless a local law is passed to the contrary, I don't see how you can be stopped from having your dog in a public park on a leash and under control.
PERHAPS someone has complained about dogs being around food, from a health perspective, and the market stalls are being treated as 'food premises', given that the vendors would need to be registered under the 'Health and Wellbeing' Act, as it is now called. However, I can't see how this is any different to a dog walking. Past a fruit & veggie display in the street outside a regular green grocers shop...
IF this is the problem, a 'solution' might be a chalk line a metre in front of stalls, and dogs aren't allowed across the line.
If what you describe happened at Lancefield I recon it would kill the market. Even some rural stall holders bring their dogs, some have pup for sale. What you describe is very sad.
In your situation I would challenge it. Leave your dog at home for the next market and take around a petition asking for the edict to be reversed. Good luck!
-
I'm a dog owner but don't like dogs in crowded situations like markets etc. not everyone likes dogs, some are scared of them. With all the people, other dogs etc it is not fair on the dogs or non dog people. I see no problem with them banning dogs
-
I'm a dog owner but don't like dogs in crowded situations like markets etc. not everyone likes dogs, some are scared of them. With all the people, other dogs etc it is not fair on the dogs or non dog people. I see no problem with them banning dogs
Agree. I've got 2 overly friendly whippets and I tend to avoid crowded places with them. While I love them, not everyone else does and you have to respect that.
-
I live in the country and our local markets have a no dog policy, It just surprises me the number of dog owners walk there dog past the no dog signs and think they don't apply to their dog. ???
-
Our markets which are farmers and food only have implemented a no dog policy.
I wouldn't take the sloth to them even if they were dog friendly. The sloth is old and anti social enough.
I think that from a health legislation and a WPHS perception it is fair enough. If a person gets bitten then the onus (or liability) is on the market organiser to compensate, not the dog owner.
The no dog policy, like everything in this nanny country, has come about because people like the Shazza's and Dazza's of this world that think that their untrained Rottweiller cross bitch on heat , thats alternating between rubbing her bits on everything in site and slobbering on peoples food is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
(Sorry Dazzler no offence intended ;D )
So as usual the lowest common(er) denominator wrecks it for everyone.
Cheers Nomad.
-
But you through me in with Shazza...... She betta put out! :cheers:
-
I went to the Saturday markets here in Derby yesterday. Some of the locals needed to be on leashes, although this black fella was not so polite to them scum....drunken scum making idiots of themselves. Do not worry, I will attend those political correctness classes sometime, if I get the time.
Regards
Tjupurula
-
But you through me in with Shazza...... She betta put out! :cheers:
Guaranteed.......................... >:D
-
. Do not worry, I will attend those political correctness classes sometime, if I get the time.
Regards
Tjupurula
please don't, political correctness is a load of rubbish i reckon. :cheers:
-
There are places for dogs and I think the Markets are not the place. Just going to Better pets and Gardens where they have a dog wash, owners have to walk their dogs through the shop to wash them and you see them cocking their legs on the shelves and dog food as they go. So markets, with food stalls etc is not the place to take them. I am a dog owner too, but these are just my thoughts on the situation.
-
please don't, political correctness is a load of rubbish i reckon. :cheers:
I did say if I get the time, and that I will never get.
-
There are places for dogs and I think the Markets are not the place. Just going to Better pets and Gardens where they have a dog wash, owners have to walk their dogs through the shop to wash them and you see them cocking their legs on the shelves and dog food as they go. So markets, with food stalls etc is not the place to take them. I am a dog owner too, but these are just my thoughts on the situation.
agree
-
More than likely it for the health and hygiene perspective , under the food act animals are not permitted where food is sold. But I also agree that others, paralytically those with young children,should not have to put up with other peoples dogs and the worry of safety for their children. I love dogs and I would never consider taking a dog into a public area full of people.
-
I have a little friendly family dog.
Like everything, the rules have to be made to the lowest common denominator.
Just because your dog is okay, doesn't mean all of them are, and I have small kids and have had enough close calls with apparently "friendly" dogs that I don't want licking or smelling me or my kids. Close enough to lick is close enough to bite.
Not a place for dogs I would say.
-
I have never seen a dog yet that can open it's wallet and purchase something off a stall holder. Surely one can attend a local market once a month without the pooch. As others have stated not everyone likes dogs and some are afraid, my girls are afraid of them and will start to retreat when they see dogs coming. I don't care if people think their dogs won't bite, it is a chance I would prefer to avoid where my girls are concerned. How do you know the dog likes going it might hate it! Just my perspective!
Cheers Tossie
-
Thnx guys and gals. Great feedback on all fronts. Appreciated.
I guess my disappointment is that what to date has been a friendly community event, come one, come all, will in my mind become less of a community event for me and many others.
I have suggested to the council that they restructure the market layout and have the pet stall holders on one side and as it's a big park, have a designated 'dogs welcome here' area, so we can still get a coffee, buy our pig's ear/liver treats and chat with other local community dog owners. Somewhat not exclude us alltogether which is today's decision, but instead continue to respect us also and cater for us.
-
I really dislike dogs at these events simply because I have a small child whose face is at bite level and I get tired of telling dog owners to keep their dog away. Too many think its lovely for their dog to lick or jump on my kids. "He won't hurt you dear". Crap. Every dog can bite and the vast majority of dog bites our section gets are from terriers.
The other thing is dogs (and also cats) do carry diseases that can be dangerous, especially pregnant women and young children.
I also love dogs but I object to having to deal with other people's dogs in a public place, especially a crowded event like a market.
-
The whole dog debate is no different to any other respect debate.
Be it camping too close, noise, privacy, generators etc etc etc.........
People just need to exercise respect.
If a dog is under control an being of no nuisance and the owner cleans up its indescretions, then no problem, but of course it takes one id10t to wreck it for everyone else.
I have had heaps of problems with neighbours over dogs barking and can't for the life of me understand how the annoying barking at 3am can not bother them?
Again, respect, its so lacking these days.
Councils hands really are tied as are most regulatory authorities. You have to have one blanket rule for all.
Ban idiots breeding and we have a starting point......
Rant rant rant.........now back to reality
Brian
-
Scarps,
I live in Wallan and we go to most markets with our 1 year old son in his pram and our 2 chocolate labs,and I was also disappointed in the decision to ban dogs.
But I can see why they have done it,it can be so hard getting around with the pram dodging dogs and leads and being constantly aware to watch for dogs sniffing at the pram etc.
It is just a matter of time before 2 dogs just don't get along going down one of the rows and someone gets hurt.there is just too many dogs now.
I will miss taking our dogs down for the market,but I think because of the size and popularity of the Wallan market it really had to happen.
cheers, Matt
-
Scarps,
I live in Wallan and we go to most markets with our 1 year old son in his pram and our 2 chocolate labs,and I was also disappointed in the decision to ban dogs.
But I can see why they have done it,it can be so hard getting around with the pram dodging dogs and leads and being constantly aware to watch for dogs sniffing at the pram etc.
It is just a matter of time before 2 dogs just don't get along going down one of the rows and someone gets hurt.there is just too many dogs now.
I will miss taking our dogs down for the market,but I think because of the size and popularity of the Wallan market it really had to happen.
cheers, Matt
Thnx Matt, yes I think it is inevitable, but I am pushing the point with our council and the Scout Group that a bit more thought could have been given to every member of our community and not just a blanket ban on some. I respect everyone's right to bring their children to the market to stroll in a safe and friendly situation. Not sure what will happen to all of the kids that actually came up to me and ask if they could have a pat of Hollie. Will they now be less of an adult?
I intend to ensure that we get some consideration, even if just having a designated 'dogs welcome here' area.
I'm slowly coming to realise why as we get older, we may turn into grumpy old men, have no tolerance for badly behaved children, and join the caravaner's forum:-)
Luckily for now I can still get away from it all and go camping (with my dog).
-
I'm slowly coming to realise why as we get older, we may turn into grumpy old men, have no tolerance for badly behaved children, and join the caravaner's forum :-)
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003496957/546473501_OhTheShame_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg)
-
it probably only took one complaint (comment) to the council, for the council to arrive at this decision, it probably only took one incident (minor?) to raise a comment.
I am not a dog owner but do care for guide dogs in final training and am also an emergency boarder for working guide dogs, I never have any hesitation about taking any dogs (guide dogs) that are in my care anywhere (that I am legally allowed under the act), I hear all sorts of comments and am very rarely challenged, the hardest time I regularly have is stopping people from petting a working dog
-
nah..........after typing, deleting and re-typing i have chosen not to get involved in the dog/no dog debate other than to say i will always take the four legged option when i can
-
and join the caravaner's forum:-)
Hey hey hey, let's not go overboard here!!!
I am not a dog owner but do care for guide dogs in final training and am also an emergency boarder for working guide dogs, I never have any hesitation about taking any dogs (guide dogs) that are in my care anywhere (that I am legally allowed under the act), I hear all sorts of comments and am very rarely challenged, the hardest time I regularly have is stopping people from petting a working dog
Guide dogs are a totally different story, they are extremely well trained and will not cause an incident. However a dog owned by Joe Average would not have anywhere near the same level of training, so cannot be trusted the same way.
-
but I am pushing the point with our council and the Scout Group that a bit more thought could have been given to every member of our community and not just a blanket ban on some.
So ban everyone else's dog but yours?
Are you saying some dogs should be allowed and others not? How do you select which dogs are ok? You cant, or --->> that bloke will complain that yours is allowed and his isn't.
Its known as firm faeces.
-
As a dog owner/lover:
I am aware that most markets have a no dogs policy.
I would never take my dog to a market anyway
I go to markets to enjoy myself and have a look around, not to keep my dog from interacting with other mutts.
-
Hi Lost, no not looking for special dispensation for just my dog, more disappointed that people with any dog (large or small, well behaved or not, cute or ugly) were being disadvantaged without any thought for our needs/desire to attend what to date has been a community event. I'm respectful of everyone's opinion, hence why I asked. Having said that, not sure your last line is necessary correct but again, I asked and welcomed your thoughts. From my perspective (and one or two others on here), what made the event a little bit special was that to date everyone could come. There was a couple of times that some locals rode their horses in, tied them safely up in one area. It was a place where once a month all members of the local community could get together.
I've accepted that a bustling market is no longer a place to bring dogs and again, thanks all for your thoughts.
-
I must say after a bit of world travel Australia is probably one of the most unfriendly dog countries in the world.
Yes dogs, and some owners, need to be controlled. Likewise parents need to take responsibility for watching little “Johnny”. When little Johnny runs up and gives the dog a bear hug it’s all the dog owners fault.
Conversely when little Johnny runs off screaming to the parent because he’s seen a dog and the parent decides it’s all the dog/owners fault because their child is scared of “dogs”. Welcome to the real world.
Both sides have a “responsibility to each other”. Unfortunately IMHO we have a media driving a vendetta against “dogs”. Usually by breed, Staffy being the current hate.
The sad fact is when there is a tragedy the majority parents usually look to blame someone else.
Unfortunately the Courts don’t have the power to ban people from owning or living in a house with doges nor do the Courts seem inclined to hand out harsh penalties to irresponsible owners with the powers they have.
The tragedy in Vic where the dogs killed a young kid and the owner is being charged with manslaughter is what should happen. Sadly these individuals will/likely still be able to own or live in a house where someone else owns the dog.
Fortunately these type of events are very rare. Which is a credit to great number of dog owners and a reality check for others?
Councils are full of public servants charged with and have the ability to “control” our lives.
-
Councils are full of public servants charged with and have the ability to “control” our lives.
Crap.
-
Thnx for the post Scott Oz, appreciate your thoughts(mostly).
Our local council here is very supportive of animals and pets and are actually trying to help me where they can.
How many councils do swaggers know have someone checking their community FB page on the weekend?
Mine did and replied honestly and empathetically.
-
Lets get back to camping
-
Why not ban kids while they're at it? Dirty little buggers touch everything with their grubby little fingers and run around causing chaos. Only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. ;D
-
Crap.
X 2. Rates pay for us to implement the rules and regulations, usually set by state gov't, with "equity and good conscience".
We don't just 'make it up', sometimes we mightn't even agree with it.
-
X 2. Rates pay for us to implement the rules and regulations, usually set by state gov't, with "equity and good conscience".
We don't just 'make it up', sometimes we mightn't even agree with it.
and sometimes rate payers don't agree with increased rates for fewer services but let's not go there...
-
More than likely it for the health and hygiene perspective , under the food act animals are not permitted where food is sold. ... I love dogs and I would never consider taking a dog into a public area full of people.
On this basis dogs would also be banned from most shopping strips where food is food is consumed at on-street tables.
-
and sometimes rate payers don't agree with increased rates for fewer services but let's not go there...
Can' see how that actually relates to what I posted?
-
Hey all, can I suggest that if there is a need to have a new thread created where swaggers can provide views on local councils and government organisations, please do so.
-
From the subsequent description of Wallan Community Market it would seem to be significantly larger than Lancefield, so hopefully our will survive as is.
Hopefully you will have some success obtaining a more nuanced outcome as a long term solution at Wallan.
-
From the subsequent description of Wallan Community Market it would seem to be significantly larger than Lancefield, so hopefully our will survive as is.
Hopefully you will have some success obtaining a more nuanced outcome as a long term solution at Wallan.
Thnx B&B, you're not too far away and I haven't been to Lancefield Market many years.
From memory, Lancefield was predominently and farmers style market, good fresh local food and wine:-)
If it's pet friendly, I'll be there.
-
Thnx B&B, you're not too far away and I haven't been to Lancefield Market many years.
From memory, Lancefield was predominently and farmers style market, good fresh local food and wine:-)
If it's pet friendly, I'll be there.
4th Saturday of the month.
-
I really dislike dogs at these events simply because I have a small child whose face is at bite level and I get tired of telling dog owners to keep their dog away. Too many think its lovely for their dog to lick or jump on my kids. "He won't hurt you dear". Crap. Every dog can bite and the vast majority of dog bites our section gets are from terriers.
Do you ever tell you kids not to go near the dogs or are you just blaming the dogs for going near your kids.
In my experience, kids are the worst offenders - they dont listen, they are stupid and cruel and cry like little babies when it does not go their way (I have two kids and two GS's - I prefere the GS as they are better behaved).
Lets ban the kids from the markets as well as they are just as annoying.
Also, me experience shows that small dogs are way more aggressive but people think this is OK becasue they are small (hate small dogs as well) I have to be careful that when a small dog approaces my large dogs, I let the owner know that they are unwelcome as they are often more agressive and if they do bite and mine bites back it will be a lot worse for them - would you let a 8 y/o kids pick on a 16 y/o adult and then blame the 16y/o when he pulverises him (apart from the fact that the 16 y/o should know better).
-
Whilst visiting Tassie earlier this year we went to Salamanca Markets and there was a massive argument with a guy with his two small dogs and the store holders about him not being allowed there with his dogs.Then the dog owner tried to bring the non smoking around food issue as well,as some store holders were smoking.
Made for an interesting visit to the markets.
-
Do you ever tell you kids not to go near the dogs or are you just blaming the dogs for going near your kids.
In my experience, kids are the worst offenders - they dont listen, they are stupid and cruel and cry like little babies when it does not go their way (I have two kids and two GS's - I prefere the GS as they are better behaved).
Lets ban the kids from the markets as well as they are just as annoying.
Also, me experience shows that small dogs are way more aggressive but people think this is OK becasue they are small (hate small dogs as well) I have to be careful that when a small dog approaces my large dogs, I let the owner know that they are unwelcome as they are often more agressive and if they do bite and mine bites back it will be a lot worse for them - would you let a 8 y/o kids pick on a 16 y/o adult and then blame the 16y/o when he pulverises him (apart from the fact that the 16 y/o should know better).
Yep there are some feral kids out there but not all of them are tarred with the same brush. Some of us can control our children and love spending time with them. As stated in my earlier post a dog can't spend money but I sure as hell know kids can.
Cheers Tossie
-
I dont know, for those who dont have kids but have dogs instead, they can sure spend a lot on their dogs. I know of pooches that are at doggy day care most days, have a shampoo twice a week etc and get all sorts of "gifts".
Horses for courses.
-
Why not ban kids while they're at it? Dirty little buggers touch everything with their grubby little fingers and run around causing chaos. Only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. ;D
Please don't be so short sighted............. :police: :police: :police: :police:
Why limit it to kids?
Can't we ban people alltogether??? >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
I reckon the world would be a much better place without the damn humans.............
PS I like the way you think :D
Brian ( a mere mortal and another number to the problem)
-
I don't have dogs, our life style doesn't allow for it as we like to travel and many of it in National Parks etc.. But we have friends who have pets, which was a bit of an eye opener to the issues surrounding travelling with pets.
The way I see it, as usual it's the minority who wreck it for everyone. The responsible dog owners with well behaved and trained dogs, well, you don't see them because they blend in and do the right thing. The ones people see are the yapping, feral mutts running around, and their owners.
I support no dogs at markets, because too often a stinky mutt comes over for a lick. Whist it may be passive I just cannot take the risk with young children.
Not to mention land mines. The biggest gripe I have with dog owners is leaving a silent fermenting mine just waiting to be stepped on.
-
Markets are for people not dogs.
That's is all.
-
Markets are for people not dogs.
That's is all.
Correction......markets are for women...... ;D ;D
-
Correction......markets are for women...... ;D ;D
Or for them to drag us poor suffering husbands along to. ;D ;D
-
Or for them to drag us poor suffering husbands along to. ;D ;D
100% correct, as usual, John..... ;D ;D
-
Hey all, can I suggest that if there is a need to have a new thread created where swaggers can provide views on local councils and government organisations, please do so.
But this thread IS about local councils enacted laws.
Good robust discussion so far.
-
Correction......markets are for women...... ;D ;D
You need to find a new market to go to. The one's I attend have tools, gardening, hardware, automotive, camping, 4WD'ing, wine, local food, oh and pet stalls. Over time, I reckon I've spent more than the mrs.
She prefers shopping centres that I hate with a passion. Definitely can't take dogs there, but I often see mongrels hanging around.
-
But this thread IS about local councils enacted laws.
Good robust discussion so far.
Actually the council aren't the bad guys in this instance, they are in actual fact trying to help me.
The current council law states that I don't even have to have my dog on a leash in this area, seems I've been too tuff on my dog.
It's the market organisers that have made this decision.
And yes, good discussion so far.
-
You need to find a new market to go to.....
No I don't..... ;D
-
Now I know why people were looking at me the other day at the Derby Markets, it was not because I was the only black fella there, it was because I could not stop scratching myself.
Tjupurula
-
At least you weren't licking yourself...
-
Actually the council aren't the bad guys in this instance, they are in actual fact trying to help me.
It's the market organisers that have made this decision.
And yes, good discussion so far.
You may find this decision has come about due to the market organizers
public liability insurance.
For what it's worth we are a 3 dog family aswell as stall holders at a local
lions market and I would never take our dogs to the market, I've see it all
over the years.
-
Thnx Mrs Smith, I think your on the money.
Btw, I'd never take my dog to a Lions market........
-
I am with you Geoff, I have been to most markets up here and all I ever see is vetiables being sold often more expensive than my local store, pot plants and plants, an assorted rubbish, often brought of ebay. And I never want to take a dog as well. ;D
-
As a stall holder at markets for the past 6 years, a dog on a leash is a real problem. I have had the experience of a dog running under my tables on a leash, the owner trying to retrieve the dog while I'm holding on for dear life to prevent everything from going arse up. In my case the table had native plants on it if damaged who pays for them, as they would be worthless to me. Just another side to the topic.
Bobsan
-
Owning a dog and liking the markets ... Nope ... Leave the pup at home. for me, it's not worth the hassle and the dog doesn't really like it anyway ... she'd rather be chasing a ball than getting pushed around or trod on by complete strangers who don't notice she's there ... and then there are the people that freak out just seeing her ... ;D
I understand them being there if they are being sold or given away though.
The 3 markets I've frequented (in the past) were the Chandler ones ... lots and lots of people ... but mostly a mixed flea and goods market with vegies, the Riverside Markets in town which is fancy handmade overpriced goods and the ones in the Kmart carpark in Logan Central ... mostly a second hand flea market ...
It's something to do if you have don't have a dog ...
Kit_e
-
Hey don't blame insurnce companies. You'll find at the bottom if this is "someone" who's made a decision that the so call "duty of care" means they shouldn't allow dogs.
Once they do that it gathers a life of its own. With noone prepared to say what a load of "crap"
-
Hey don't blame insurnce companies. You'll find at the bottom if this is "someone" who's made a decision that the so call "duty of care" means they shouldn't allow dogs.
Once they do that it gathers a life of its own. With noone prepared to say what a load of "crap"
Perhaps with the No Dog policy, it makes their insurance cheaper? If I don't insure things "away from home" (like the dog eg) it makes my insurance cheaper too. ;D
Kit_e
-
Perhaps with the No Dog policy, it makes their insurance cheaper? If I don't insure things "away from home" (like the dog eg) it makes my insurance cheaper too. ;D
Kit_e
Usually having a dog makes home insurance cheaper. At the bottom of this will be some faceless person claiming its a duty of care issue and blame insurance Co
-
Thnx Kit e,
definitely not a good idea to take any dog to a flea market:-)
In term of insurance being cheaper, you'd have to read the supplementary PDS.........
Pooch Disclosure Statement
-
PDS ... Poo Discovered Somewhere.
Kit_e
-
Hey don't blame insurnce companies. You'll find at the bottom if this is "someone" who's made a decision that the so call "duty of care" means they shouldn't allow dogs.
Once they do that it gathers a life of its own. With noone prepared to say what a load of "crap"
A different perspective...If you or your club were the organiser of one of these markets somewhere and had to have your own public liability insurance policy to operate the markets and your insurer wrote to you and said no dogs at your markets and if you were still to allow dogs and someone got bitten/injured then your public liability insurance is null and void, and also as the insurance policy will be null and void if an incident such as this were to happen and as you/your club "have a duty of care" to provide a safe environment, then you/your club "could" be held personally responsible for compensation to the victim (this will depend on the laws in each state of course)....
Now, if under the law you/your club "could" be held personally responsible and you/your club had to pay out of your back pocket if such a claim were made, what would you do?
I know what I would do!
Just putting a different perspective on it thats all.....Yep it sucks that this is the way we have to think now, but insurance companies will do anything to get out of a claim and solicitors will make a claim against anyone who they think can payout for their client.
Greg
-
All this has made me think of the policy we have in Mulan...if a dog bites someone, a couple of us men will rope the dog, take it away, and shoot it, as we will not have a dangerous dog in the community. I have had to enforce this rule with two of my own dogs, and I did it without hesitation. I know some people do not like that thought, but we are extremely remote, and cannot afford a dog attack under any circumstances. The main ancestral dreaking here in Mulan is a Dingo dreaming, we will always care for our animals, but never put up with them biting, especially as many dogs here are trained for hunting and cattle work.
I do 100% agree that no dogs should be around food, and where there are a lot of people, as too many dogs feel the need to be superior, and suddenly there could be a vicious dog fight where people are trying to relax and enjoy themselves.
Regards
Tjupurula
-
OK if your insurance policy has an exclusion about dogs then the policy is not void you just have no cover for that type of incident.
This doesn't equate to the club being liable because the incident occurs. Nor for that matter does it mean you/club have so called "breached your duty of care".
Your duty of care may simply be to advise that all dogs must be leashed at all times and that parents and must watch all children etc etc.
Your duty of care is not automatically to ban dogs.
As I said "Duty of care" much abused and miss understood principal
-
With insurance, it could be as easy as there provider giving them an option to
keep the premium at a similar cost or maybe having to increasing there
premium with the continued inclusion of dogs to the site. This may be due to
claims the insurer may have had elsewhere, some markets will not let you have
a stall without proof you have your own public liability.
-
OK if your insurance policy has an exclusion about dogs then the policy is not void you just have no cover for that type of incident.
This doesn't equate to the club being liable because the incident occurs. Nor for that matter does it mean you/club have so called "breached your duty of care".
Your duty of care may simply be to advise that all dogs must be leashed at all times and that parents and must watch all children etc etc.
Your duty of care is not automatically to ban dogs.
As I said "Duty of care" much abused and miss understood principal
Whether this is correct or not, and IMHO it isn't. The simple fact is that if the club is having the event on land under their control, by ownership, lease, licence, community grant etc, then that club would be targeted by potential claimants (legal representatives) if an injury etc occurs. This on its own is a simple enough financial reason for the club to enforce such a policy as the club would not put itself in a position whereby it may be subject to expensive legal proceedings that may effect it's viability.
There are many people who will actively seek to abuse situations like these for personal financial gain.
I had an instance, where a woman, who slipped off a chair managed to sue both the owner of the property and the tenant of the property jointly and severally for $180K. It did not matter that the owner of the property did not supply the chair, or even the tiles on the floor of the property, he still had a judgement against him of $90k.
The tenant had public liability insurance the owner did not ( against advice) it probably cost him $140K all up to defend himself and a **** load of angst and time.
Research showed that this woman was a professional at this and the number of court cases that she had won (edit) was astounding.
I know this sounds a bit extreme but it happens all the time and if a simple country club was held up to this type of action it would probably not survive unless it had deep pockets or substantial benefactors.
I understand what you say about "Duty of Care" its usually the first thing someone with no legal knowledge throws at a situation.
I also think that the committee members who have to, unfortunately, make a decision on this type of thing have a "Duty of Care" to the club, and this is the safest and most effective.
Cheers Nomad.
-
Appreciate all of your feedback, you have crystalized for me that just like the the Lord of the Rings - where The time of the Elves is over!. The time of the dogs at market is over.
Here's the local update, but need to put this in a bit of perspective
Our local market for many years has very much been a local country market where everyone came together once a month to say hi and catch up over a coffee and a local bargain, buy fresh fruit and vegies, maybe even buy the Mrs a bunch of flowers. Tools, hardware, plants etc you name it, good chance someone was selling it. Much more about the community getting together than the commercial enterprise. A lot of people bought their dogs. Several instances of people riding up on their horses.
I have been in communication with both the local council and the Scout Group and even they admit that it's a change that they've been resisting for some time, but if you read my initial post we're fast becoming an outer suburb of Melbourne and the size and numbers of people attending this event has changed and grown. There's been a minority of people complain and a small number of instances where kids became scared, older people step in dog do do!. Question is was it fresh or from the day before. For many years this event had a real community feel about it, but much more today it's become just like every other market you have been referring to.
The interesting thing here is that in my questioning, that they didn't expect, the land on which the market is held is curently zoned as a leash free zone, so at least the market attendees were being mature enough to all have their dogs on leads and in harnesses.
The market organiser intimated that council would be in attendance next time and handing out fines. The Council said they couldn't do that under the current zoning, it would be up to the market organiser to police their own area under their lease agreement.
I advised both that previously as a proud and supportive community member, I have been happy to step in and help with any difficult situation as I didn't want visitors to speak badly of our town.
We've all agreed that what's been changed can't be undone.
I thanked them for their professional responses and wished them all the best in the future endeavours. I also suggested that they may need to change the event name from 'Olde Time market'.
Thanks to one Swggr I've been reminded that another local market only 25kms away and in the next council area, still has a monthly market where I can take my dog, buy my fresh food, maybe buy the Mrs a bunch of flowers and meet new friends.
Everyone's happy.
-
Scraps, when you head over 'my' way shoot me a PM and we might both get to postin the MmyswaggerSpotted thread. ;D
-
Scraps, when you head over 'my' way shoot me a PM and we might both get to postin the MmyswaggerSpotted thread. ;D
will do
-
Interesting update here.
Our local country market was on yesterday (monthly) and I was intrigued to go and have a look (without my dog in tow) to see how they were handling the 'ban on dogs'.
We'll I counted over 25 dogs on leads being walked around the market, all behaving themselves in the hour that I was there.
There was noone from the organisors that I could see, asking people to take their dogs away, nor could I see the proposed dog holding/waiting area.
Not going to pursue this as many here have the view that it's not an appropriate place to have dogs, kids and older people in the one area, but maybe, just maybe, one lone voice actually standing up and saying something has made them think about the impact of decisions made.
I did go back and suggest as a solution they could easily have a pet friendly area and a 'no pet zone', bit like a non smoking zone. it could be divided by the coffee food stalls as and have the pet stalls, stock feed stalls, and any other vendor that wanted to be in the 'Pet Friendly' zone.