MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: redrocker on May 01, 2013, 08:56:35 PM
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Hi swaggers
I have a queastion
petrol over diesel
i want to buy a 4x4 i dont have a lot of cash i would like to know why would i buy a diesel over a petrol there are a lot of petrol models on the market more than diesel and i can buy a petrol model cheaper
please let me decide
Thanks
redrocker
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I have a diesel because I prefer them. There are plenty of great petrol 4Bs out there. There is absolutely no reason not to buy a petrol 4B. Do you mind if I ask what your budget is. What brand of 4B due you prefer.
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I had a 4.5L Petrol/LPG 80 Series Cruiser and have moved to a 4.2L Turbo Diesel 100 Series.
I find there is substantially more tourqe in the diesel makes towing heaps easier.
Also safer to carry additional fuel with a diesel. Only issue is I still need to carry some ULP for the chainsaw but the heater (water and air) is diesel.
Bunyip
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The real question is where do you want to take your fourby and do you plan to drag anything behind it?
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It used to be a lot cheaper to run a diesel, that advantage has largely evaporated as petrol engines have become more efficient.
Diesel requires servicing more often (eg. change oil every 5000km, and they tend to hold a lot more oil than a petrol motor).
Diesels handle water crossings better than petrol - no spark circuitry to get wet.
Diesels have much higher compression than petrol, so are better for idling down steep descents when offroad.
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Depends on what model. Take Prado for instance. In the 120 series the running costs between petrol and diesel are very similar.
If you are on a budget the prado 120 90 series 2.7 petrol 4cyl is good value and ultra reliable.
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If your on a budget i assume you are looking at 10 years or older 4x4's. In that era it dosent matter what you get. Petrol ones are generally cheaper to buy and diesel costs more to service. Newer 4x4's..... well thats another thing. Ask this question in another 10 years time and the answer will be petrol.
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If your on a budget i assume you are looking at 10 years or older 4x4's. In that era it dosent matter what you get. Petrol ones are generally cheaper to buy and diesel costs more to service. Newer 4x4's..... well thats another thing. Ask this question in another 10 years time and the answer will be petrol.
Really, I thought Diesel was the future? better fuel economy, better towing, better off roading due to big torque down low.
Petrol cars are really at the end of their technological evolution where as diesel is really on a few years in
In $$ terms as said already a petrol is cheaper to buy & service but uses a lot more fuel per klm, the Diesel is dearer to buy and service but a lot cheaper to fuel per klm.
How old is the real determining factor, i wouldn't buy a diesel for economy if it was over 10 years old
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If your working to a budget and decide on diesel, just get it checked out because doesn't matter what make they cost a fortune when they decide to break compared to a petrol rebuild but generally you get higher mileage out of a Diesel engine...
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Unless you need the touring range - and I doubt you will yet, if you are a beginner on a budget - buy petrol.
With few exceptions (in fact none I can think of right now!) it will cost you a little more each week to fill (assuming it is a daily driver) but will be cheaper to buy and cheaper to service, and less often
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Touring range? I have a petrol Cruiser and have a range of about 1300kms, gotta love a long range tank.......until I have to fill both tanks up
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this should be fun
(http://www.diabetesmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/popcorn.jpg)
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Really, I thought Diesel was the future? better fuel economy, better towing, better off roading due to big torque down low.
Petrol cars are really at the end of their technological evolution where as diesel is really on a few years in
In $$ terms as said already a petrol is cheaper to buy & service but uses a lot more fuel per klm, the Diesel is dearer to buy and service but a lot cheaper to fuel per klm.
How old is the real determining factor, i wouldn't buy a diesel for economy if it was over 10 years old
There's still plenty of life left in petrol motors, and they're also starting to follow the path of smaller capacity with turbos, which fills in the torque hole at the bottom of the rev range. Even the Americans are doing it. The F150 can be had with a turbo 3.5 V6, which has similar power and torque, to the 5.0 V8, but goes harder whilst using less fuel. Diesel still has the advantage of range, but petrols are catching up, and I believe they're easier to engineer for tighter emission levels.
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Because I was looking for value for money in an older 4x4 I was impressed by the Holden Jackaroo,as it has always been under valued in $ terms, relative to its ability.
As I'm on the dark side of 50 I started from the default preference of manual diesel, as that was the 'thinking' of what a 'real' 4x4 was back in the 1980s.
A few questions on here and a bit of googling quickly convinced me that the later Jackaroo (Isuzu) diesel was EXTREMELY 'problematic'.
Likewise, that auto, rather than manual was the way to go.
Having done some 4x4 training in my $7250, 2000 Jackaroo Monterey, I'm damn sure it, with its LSD rear diff, will let me tow anywhere I want to go, albeit using the chicken run if I ever get to 'Gunshot'.
Not even going to bother with a gas conversion, as for the $7000 it would cost, I'll buy a damn lot of fuel, and a long range tank. Besides, gas not necessarily easy to re-fill in outback areas.
So, my advice would be go for an 1-15 year old petrol 4x4, and enjoy the best value for money in off-roading!
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Some of the $$ reasons have changed over the years too. Diesel used to be cheaper to buy than petrol AND better economy. Now, where i live at least, diesel is around 10c per liter MORE than unleaded. Go figure.
Also, i reckon a diesel engine should last longer than a petrol before major $$ work needed. This is more true the older the vehicle, which is usually determined by budget.
Really comes back to what you want a 4x4 for. To get started, have some fun, and learn about what can be done go for a well preserved petrol. You are more likely to pick up a petrol "mum's taxi" than a diesel one.
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Diesels are great for towing but be realistic, what percentage per year (or over the life of ownership) of kilometres will be towing. Petrol has power to burn (and the fuel bill with it). Wave bye bye to the diesel as you pass them up the hill towing.
As has already been mentioned petrol is at least 10c/L cheaper where I live anyway. The older diesels require 5000km oil changes. The modern diesel is up to around 15,000km service intervals like their petrol cousins though if I owned one I would drop the oil and filter at 7500km.
Horses for courses but I don't think you would necessarily be disappointed with either choice.
Also keep in mind if you require new injectors or an injector pump rebuild then $$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Diesels are great for towing but be realistic, what percentage per year (or over the life of ownership) of kilometres will be towing. Petrol has power to burn (and the fuel bill with it). Wave bye bye to the diesel as you pass them up the hill towing.
Excluding 200series!! The only petrol vehicles towing a trailer up hill that will wave bye bye will be supercharged/turbocharged vehicles like a range rover or X5, and they will still be revving damn hard in 3rd gear and drinking ULP faster than a footballer on mad Monday.
But I do agree with concerns regarding any costs involved in future repairs/rebuilds that may be required. I think the days if people keeping diesel vehicles for a half a million k's are nearing the end> I don't even want to contemplate what it would cost to overhaul a 200 series diesel engine. Could be the sort of experience that books someone into a mental hospital.
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Excluding 200series!! The only petrol vehicles towing a trailer up hill that will wave bye bye will be supercharged/turbocharged vehicles like a range rover or X5, and they will still be revving damn hard in 3rd gear and drinking ULP faster than a footballer on mad Monday.
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I had to laugh - latest issue of CTA mag had a 200 series towing a camper that was getting fuel 'economy' figures of 29L per 100km - like petrol you still pay a price for decent power.
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I had to laugh - latest issue of CTA mag had a 200 series towing a camper that was getting fuel 'economy' figures of 29L per 100km - like petrol you still pay a price for decent power.
CT or the Queen Mary? Seriously, mags like CTA are put together by rank amateurs these days, it would not surprise me if that was just a typo. Either that it they forgot to mention they left the handbrake on, oh and its low range in powder soft sand.
Flat strap on the highway towing about 1500kg up and downhill at around 110 the worst I've had us about 20l/100km. The V8 jeep I had used about another 5l/100km to do the same, and it was sitting around 4000 on the tacho to maintain that pace, which it still couldn't up steeper hills.
No, I'm happy with diesel, so relaxed to tow with.
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... fuel 'economy' figures of 29L per 100km - like petrol you still pay a price for decent power.
This is because fuel tax, apart from the diesel rebate to some 'special interest groups' is moving towards being based solely on the energy value of the fuel.
This is also the reason that the differential between petrol and LPG is becoming less. Makes no sense IMO, given that LPG is cleaner than petrol, but that is another issue.
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Excluding 200series!! The only petrol vehicles towing a trailer up hill that will wave bye bye will be supercharged/turbocharged vehicles like a range rover or X5, and they will still be revving damn hard in 3rd gear and drinking ULP faster than a footballer on mad Monday.
But I do agree with concerns regarding any costs involved in future repairs/rebuilds that may be required. I think the days if people keeping diesel vehicles for a half a million k's are nearing the end> I don't even want to contemplate what it would cost to overhaul a 200 series diesel engine. Could be the sort of experience that books someone into a mental hospital.
Yes but if you look at the 200 series the new V8 petrol is now on paper getting the same fuel economy as the diesel and with a 10k price difference (even more second hand) and unleaded being generally cheaper it is getting harder to choose between the 2 for the occasional tower as 10k buys a lot of unleaded
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I was surprised to hear that the fuel economy of a diesel 6I Cruiser was the same as my petrol V8.
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Still a bit off topic again, but I reckon when reviews are done on vehicles for towing "economy" the reviewers are not paying for the fuel and therefore not driving as the average punter would be whilst towing up hills and such....
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You can buy a good diesel GQ Patrol for $7500.00 or a very flash petrol one for that sort of price.
They are by far the best priced 4X4 they will go any where and are cheap and easy to fix.
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Still a bit off topic again, but I reckon when reviews are done on vehicles for towing "economy" the reviewers are not paying for the fuel and therefore not driving as the average punter would be whilst towing up hills and such....
you are right to some degree, the influences of deadlines, getting the job done in a tight time frame, the need to get photos etc before the sun goes down means quite a lot of stop-start and heavy fuel use when doing magazine jobs. It's always best to have a dedicated 'fuel test road loop' to get a more real world fuel use figure
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Still a bit off topic again, but I reckon when reviews are done on vehicles
for who ever pays the most in advertising $$$$ and or gives one to the magazine as a "long term" tester
I have zero faith in any tests in papers/magazines.
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I have zero faith in any tests in papers/magazines.
:cup:
(Excepting articles written by Mr Torrens presumably?? ;D)
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I was in a similar position a few years ago when I was looking at replacing my 4wd with a desiel. What I found was for less money than a stock TD80 series (which was what I wanted) I could buy a much more modified/accessorised petrol with a lot less kms.
The 80 I ended up with has a supercharged 4.5 that puts out more torque than most desiels on the market (at a lot less rpm than you'd think), aftermarket EFI computer, modified auto transmission with manual lock up and reduction gears, front and rear bars and sliders, winch, dual batteries, lockers, long range tank, new(ish) suspension, new 35 inch tyres, cruise,ect,ect.
Fuel consumption varies between 15/16lts empty up to 21/22lts towing/heavy per 100kms. Given I only get one long trip a year in, Cape York ect the additional fuel cost doesn't worry me.
Hope that puts a bit more perspective on your decision, good luck.
And yes first post, hello to all. Good little site you all have here.
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Really, I thought Diesel was the future? better fuel economy, better towing, better off roading due to big torque down low.
Petrol cars are really at the end of their technological evolution where as diesel is really on a few years in
Sorry but I have to disagree with all of that. Diesel is still catching up to the advances in petrol technology.
If we are talking 10+ year old trucks, I would agree diesel is the go. If we are talking current generation trucks, I would say go for a petrol. Especially if you are on a budget.
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There is an interesting article in this months Camper Trailer Australia that shows how being obsessed with diesel can lead to you owning a piece of crap.
The article is about how he decided on 15k budget with a number of 'non-negotiable' criteria that included;
diesel
manual
4wd with a splitter box (I think he meant low range not a road ranger)
So blah blah blah realises that there are very few that meet this criteria until he ends up with, wait for it, a 1996 Land Rover Discovery TD. :cheers:
He then goes on with the usual stuff you hear when justifying buying a disco and even says "Okay, fair enough, but how often do they break?". Well the answer to that is "Frequently and expensively".
Before the Land Roverites saddle up the big horse the first discoveries deserve to be product bashed. Its not until the late late series 2's and 3's that they were half reasonable.
When you compare what reliable machines he could have got for the same money in petrol is boggling. Prados and Pajeros, Late model Mitsu Challengers, 80 series, GQ's and GU's, Jackaroos and pathfinders. And thats just in the wagons let alone dual cabs.
Unless you REALLY need a solid front axle then you could hardly go past the late Challengers with coil rear ends. I have seen low mileage early 2000 ones in perfect nick for less than 9k.
Sadly punters will read the mag and take it as expert advice on what to buy. Poor Buggers :'(
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How about making this a 'Poll'
Be interesting to see the stats of who has what......?
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We just bought a Landcruiser. A 2002 Petrol 4.5ltr. Its a 105 series live axle. Its in immaculate condition with 210,000km
Fully checked before purchase and its been a great buy. Its had a part time conversion done with Manual locking hubs so its not an ALL TIME 4WD like in standard form. We are getting about 16ltr/100km. Not bad for a big unit.
We came from a 3.2ltr V6 jackaroo. People always bagged the jackaroo but we loved it.
It didnt have gear hanging off it and it wasnt a 4wd muddbogger either but it was great at all we used it for and although sometimes struggling up hills with the 1.5T trailer AND a motorbike on the back it done it using 19lt/100km towing and 12.89ltr/100km when not.
It cost us next to nothing to maintain and I learned alot about petrol engines fixing it myself. Getting belts done was over the 1k but only needed done every 100,000km which for most is 5 year intervals.
We bought it for $8,000 8 years ago and it now had 350,000km on it and still going well.
We upgraded to a cruiser ($16k) because of the airbags and the space with almost 3 kids now.
Looking at the diesel versions........for under the 20k mark they all looked like wrecks with HIGH KM....over 350,000
and most had fuel figures of 12 -16lt/100km so I dont think we are off by that much.
We are 1 year into out big lap and due to another child on the way have got a bigger unit with more safety features.
We looked at the diesels and could not justify the expenditure for simply having a diesel........ get a bit of water in a diesel and its $$$ but the petrol can shrug it off. Our unit flies and now we are steaming past diesel units on the road. Petrol is not over 20lt/100km with the CT on the back and servicing costs is minimal.......We could have travelled A BLOODY LONG way for years to come on the money we saved buying a similar spec diesel unit.
I drive V8 cruisers at work all day and to be honest I cant see what all the rave is about.....LOW down torque is good but after 2,000rpm its got little.
the diesels out here have more dramas with water and electrics breaking all the time. you can't fix em out here and you have to send them to town and its really expensive.
Just my 2C
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We just bought a Landcruiser. A 2002 Petrol 4.5ltr. Its a 105 series live axle.
I had the exact same model. Loved it. We saw 16 on the highway and 18's around town. Sweet!
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Have a look at these long long threads where people have wrestled with the problem:
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17882&hilit=jeep (http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17882&hilit=jeep)
http://www.jeepgarage.org/f157/is-the-diesel-really-worth-it-52955.html (http://www.jeepgarage.org/f157/is-the-diesel-really-worth-it-52955.html)
http://www.jeepgarage.org/f157/diesel-people-enlighten-me-2014-a-53500.html (http://www.jeepgarage.org/f157/diesel-people-enlighten-me-2014-a-53500.html)
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for who ever pays the most in advertising $$$$ and or gives one to the magazine as a "long term" tester
I have zero faith in any tests in papers/magazines.
I understand your cynicism Lost.
In the light of one publishing company in particular, It is well justified.
But I am proud to say it is not always the case ;D
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I drive V8 cruisers at work all day and to be honest I cant see what all the rave is about.....LOW down torque is good but after 2,000rpm its got little.
Are you talking 76series single turbo or 200series twin turbo? If the latter I am struggling to grasp this. Yes they don't have the power band of a petrol engine, but 2000revs is pure BS for a 200. Sorry but fact.
Single turbo on the other hand is an over rated motor. My father has one and I have driven it both unhitched and with my 1.5t loaded GS behind it. All the reviews state that the gearbox is "almost redundant" blah blah and that tripe is just plain cr#p. It's good, but not THAT good.
So which model are you referring to?
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So which model are you referring to?
He'd be talking about the 76, and he would be right, it runs out of mumbo at about 2500 rpm.
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He'd be talking about the 76, and he would be right, it runs out of mumbo at about 2500 rpm.
You would hope that is so.
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I love my '01 TD cruiser. I could have paid half as much for a live axle petrol 4.5 or 10k less for an IFS 4.7 V8 compared to the TD. 12 years old and 270ks it runs like a fresh one, does everything i ask of it and its no slouch with good fuel economy to boot. I'm heading off touring, towing and off roading so It makes sense as the pick for my needs. Pick the vehicle that best suits your needs and figure out how to get it.
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I used to drive a petrol/gas Maverick it got me to the high country in vic, cruised around the Grampians and toured the riverina in nsw but after 250,000 on the clock the old was just that,, old....
Its a choice a preference really determined by your means and budget
I like to travel to remote areas,,, just this summer gone oodnattatta the pink roadhouse couldn't sell leaded cos it was too hot but diesel was no problem
some areas have no leaded gas just diesel but depends where you wanna go
for long life and durability diesel is a good choice and unless you can afford a new vehicle the older diesels do have goo fuel economy, but once again its what you choose... to some people fuel efficiency is simply not part of the equation,, its simply if the vehicle will get you there ha ha i'm sure all this will just confuse you more
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I have a 2000 model petrol cruiser. The price at $17,000 with 117, 000 on the clock with snorkel, dual batteries, driving lights and never been off road. That was in oct 2011 and only have 136,000 as of today.
I have spent under $2000 to add a draw system, deep cycle batt, airbags, UHF radio and some other gear.
It likes a drink but it is faultless.
Mark
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I have seen your Cruza around Cairns somewhere McGirr. I remember the maroon paint nd the big ARB sticker. Can't remember where I saw it but I drive from Golsborough into the CBD every mornin and home in the arvo.
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for long life and durability diesel is a good choice
Once upon a mechanical fuel pump and natural aspiration time it was. Those days are gone, gone, gone. :cheers:
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Once upon a mechanical fuel pump and natural aspiration time it was. Those days are gone, gone, gone. :cheers:
1HZ and 1HD-FTE Landcruisers have mechanical pumps until early 2007. (Dirty old) Nissan Patrol TD42 and TD4.2T are mechanical pumps up to 2006. I'd reckon these and older are most likely to be in the budget of first timers and those looking for a budget diesel 4x4. Anyone who says they are on a low budget isn't dropping in to VW for a spankers Amarok or Toyota for a D4D Prado.
that said.... if a petrol motor suits the individuals needs then go for it.
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I had diesel in the early days 2.4 & 2.8 hiluxes then a 3ltr patrol , once everything went common rail I went petrol and will never go back , ( except for ute) as they no longer come in petrol . But honestly the rest of the world rates petrol engines and yet in aust we have a love affair with deisal .given how poorly refined our product can be I always wonder why.
Until crd , granted it was the way to go but since , its no longer a golden egg to trouble free and cost efficient motoring.
Blame the euro standards for the way deisal has gone , if the tb42 Nissan and 4.2 t/d Toyota engines were still around then there would be no argument. :D :D
But given the current crop of Diesel engines avail I like petrol.
Jet :D :D
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Jet has explained what I was alluding to. Thanks jet.
The 2.8 hilux is the perfect example. Service correctly AND leave it std and they would go about their business for ever.
It is a myth that diesels last longer.
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It is a myth that diesels last longer.
Plenty of well serviced and still running GQ TD42 diesels with 600,000 on them.. dont see many petrol TB42 with that many klms without issues.
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Sorry "modern diesels"
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Two years ago I bought a 2005 100 Series GXL with the 4.7 litre V8 petrol engine for $29,000. I was immaculate, with full service history and had some off road fruit bolted on, but no real evidence of off road use. At the time, a similar vehicle with a 4.2 turbo diesel would have cost around $20,000 more. I think it's because the silver nomads are driving up the prices on good second hand diesel tows.
Anyhow, I did the sums before I bought the V8 petrol and found that, with service costs, fuel and so on, it would take me 200,000 km to break even against a 4.2 turbo diesel. I didn't factor in resale costs. The V8 petrol is great, but thirsty. If you look at the mileage you're going to be doing, how long you plan to keep it and relative costs, the numbers should tell you which way to go.
Down the track, I'll go with a diesel for the longer range, ease of carrying extra fuel, and better economy while towing. But, right now, the petrol engine is just fine. Dollar for dollar, I think choosing petrol will give you more car for your money.
But in their heart of hearts, I think every 4WD petrol head would prefer an oil burner. I know I would.
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Sorry "modern diesels"
Agree 12000%.
Just had a discussion with a mate thats a car wholesaler... hes a Cruiser man thru adn thru.. but is now driving a 06 Rangie Vogue Supercharged.. I started giving him crap about it, but it actually sounded good for his use, 4ton towing capacity to start with.
he didnt have much good to say about modern diesels, and thats how he ended up with what he has.
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Plenty of well serviced and still running GQ TD42 diesels with 600,000 on them.. dont see many petrol TB42 with that many klms without issues.
OPPS I think I got my tb and TD confused sorry mate . I did mean the patrol 4.2T/D and agree it was a great engine. ;D ;D
Would still have to be one of my biggest regrets not buying a live axle 4.2 patrol when i bought the 3.0ltr new . But i think I,m not alone in those sleepness nights.LOL
Jet ;D ;D
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What is your budget mate?
how many people
What must have?
Ute? wagon? Shorty? long wheel base?
Roofrack?
Age of car matter?
Some people here 100k is not much.. but most of us, its can be a stupid amount of cash.
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He'd be talking about the 76, and he would be right, it runs out of mumbo at about 2500 rpm.
And Symon would be right, I work on a cattle station. :cup:
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In Europe. Diesel is about 10c a litre cheaper than petrol(euro cents)
Most small cars, and larger cars all seem to be diesel.
They all seem to get good fuel economy and seam to last.
I had a work car, diesel, that was given to me with314,000kn on it, I gave it back to the company with over 360,000km on it. Used about 5l/100km, when flogging it, it used about 5.8l/100km.
Never went to the garage in all the time ivhad it and the tight ass company I worked for probably never sent it there much before I had it.
I flogged it hard and abused it, and it still kept going. Was passed onto the next new employer after I left. The only thing it needed was 4 new tyres.
Just my observations, but majority of care in Europe all seem to be diesel, and its cheaper to buy.
Majority of cars in USare petrol, and thats cheaper to buy
don't know if its any equation, but you'd think it would be uniform globally, at least for things like car longevity.
seems now, here at least off buying a new car, you'd buy a petrol.
I drive two petroleum, but wish I had a diesel, that only because they are old and I get around ยน5-18l-100km, and because from Europe diesel's i cheaper to buy. both from caryard and bowser, in Australia, guess if new car, it would be petrol, if older car it would be diesel.
Probably ......................?