MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mallory Black on February 04, 2013, 06:50:13 PM
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read an interesting article in the CM today about the poor standards of "qualified" tradespeople.
I did my trade in the late '70's and we had a grading system of fail, pass, credit, honour.
I busted a gut to get good marks and came out of my 3 years with credits and honours.
that was enough of a result so that as soon as I turned 21 I automatically qualified for "A" Grade Mechanic.
Seems that the current rating of "competent" or "not competent" does nothing to show a prospective employer if he has a sharp person or a dud.
Now it appears it's been made worse by putting apprentice training in the hands of private companies and "Cert 3"
I think a lot of fellow swaggers also have a trade background. I's like to hear some of your thoughts
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I can't comment on that aspect but what is interesting is lately there are lots of very skilled craftsmen setting up shop doing great work. It appears that pride in learning old skills is making a reappearance which is great to see.
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Im with you Mallory, I myself am a 37 yr old 4th year apprentice sparkatician, and one of the first things i noticed when starting the tafe etc was that you only get a competent/not competent mark on the modules that are completed. I started with doing a pre vocational course of my own back and ended up including in my job applications, my results sheet that showed what %'s I passed my modules with and have ever since been keeping my own record to show any prospective employers in the near future should i need it. I do believe having this result sheet landed my full apprenticeship in 2009 right in the midst of the GFC
As it stands in electrical in Qld a 50% pass is all thats needed minimum to obtain an electrical licence after completion of a capstone assesment during your 4th year among other profilling arrangements to be signed off. also if you do fail one of the modules you only have to resit that module to pass and you are then graded as a %50 pass no matter what for that module. Cross my fingers i have so far passed with out resiting to date and this is my last week of tafe for 4th year.
I am aghast at some of the students in my class who work for the local supply authority and their results and the amount of money they make as apprentices is just ludicrous along with the fact that even with my above results it wasnt enoupgh to get in with that supply authority myself. It just comes down to the final interview and one wrong placed or lack of word.
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It is interesting that you have brought this up, as we were discussing this at work recently ....
First my background, Im a 36yo Carpenter, who has done extensive work in all facets of domestic carpentry(this is sounding like a matchmaker ad all of a sudden .. lol) I live and work ina country QLD town some 2 1/2 hrs form Brisbane.
The boys I work with all did their time out here. The blokes who do it now dont even do "class time", all their tafe work is completed via coomputer. Now while I do understand how technolgy can help in delivering country people training packages, I think that some of these blokes are missing the basics of training. For example we have a 21 yo qualified chippy who is one year out of his time, and when asked to scribe cornice and skirting, he looked at us with a blank expression. Now this is VERY basic skill that I would expect a carpenteer to know. But sadly he had no idea.
The other "older bloke" on site and I often just shake our heads ....... :S
Cheers Chippy :D
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Im with you Mallory, I myself am a 37 yr old 4th year apprentice sparkatician, and one of the first things i noticed when starting the tafe etc was that you only get a competent/not competent mark on the modules that are completed. I started with doing a pre vocational course of my own back and ended up including in my job applications, my results sheet that showed what %'s I passed my modules with and have ever since been keeping my own record to show any prospective employers in the near future should i need it. I do believe having this result sheet landed my full apprenticeship in 2009 right in the midst of the GFC
As it stands in electrical in Qld a 50% pass is all thats needed minimum to obtain an electrical licence after completion of a capstone assesment during your 4th year among other profilling arrangements to be signed off. also if you do fail one of the modules you only have to resit that module to pass and you are then graded as a %50 pass no matter what for that module. Cross my fingers i have so far passed with out resiting to date and this is my last week of tafe for 4th year.
This is the exact reason why the capstone test was re-introduced in QLD. The ESO had little faith in the 'quality' of the training by the RTO's/TAFE colleges, so the capstone was the final 'check' to make sure at least they had the basics right. It isn't uncommon to see apprentices finish all their TAFE modules, but have to sit the capstone 4 or 5 times before passing.
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Try checking out qualified horticulturalists
These days there just a bloke with ute and a shovel ( and they don't even know how to use the shovel )
The cert 3 is a joke
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G'day Chippy,
As you know mate I'm a wood butcher as well ;D
I agree with you, My Tech teacher( I did my theory of a night till 10pm after busting a hump for nearly ten hours each day) who was a working builder earning an extra quid teaching Tech, the little tricks of the trade he taught us, things I take for granted now, they come second nature.
These skills I believe tradies these days are missing. It seems to be about how many power tools you can carry in ya trailer, although some of them are handy bits of kit at times 8)
I guess it's the same for Spanner Swingers, How many would know how to tune a Holley 600 Squarebore sitting on a 351Cleveland by ear?
:cheers:
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..........For example we have a 21 yo qualified chippy who is one year out of his time, and when asked to scribe cornice and skirting, he looked at us with a blank expression. Now this is VERY basic skill that I would expect a carpenteer to know. But sadly he had no idea.....
I hope you instructed him in the correct method.
It's not his fault that the system has been pulled apart.........
:cheers:
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I work in the construction industry as a labourer and get to work with all different trades from concreters, to sparkies and plumbers etc and some of the young generation apprentices lack the enthusiasm, passion and work ethic that is clearly still evident in older tradesman as if they are there just there for the money and that's all. The skill level between the older and younger generation (qualified) is quiet evident (in most cases) that I have seen and that's just my opinion.
I'm sure there are plenty around in this generation that defy this and are guns but this has been my experience so far.
In saying that I've had a bad experience with and older chippie who built a deck around our spa and pool a couple of years ago that has collapsed. Can't get in touch with the old prick, if I do god help him >:( >:D
BD
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A timely thread as it was on this day in 1988 that I signed my apprenticeship papers........
I did my time ( mechanic) at a place where it was done "the old way". I think that part of the problem is that a lot of middle aged tradesmen are getting out the game & as such the knowledge isn't being passed on. Some apprentices are being "taught" on site by blokes who are just out of their time themselves. They haven't had the experience themselves, so how the hell can they pass anything on. Couple that with some of the younger generations attitude to being told something ( let alone getting off their ar$e & DOING something)& is any wonder some of our new tradesmen are a bit lacking.Classrooms & books can only do so much, the rest has to be learned ( & taught) in a hands on fashion. "Learn by doing" was a saying I heard a lot.
I'll be 43 this July, still employed as a mechanic but not main stream automotive anymore. I may be wrong, but that's the way I see it. :cheers:
PS.. Had a chuckle at the Elec 50% pass mark. Is graded as fried & survived?? ;D
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I personaly don't think the grading of apprentices counts for much. I finished my apprenticeship with honours in the early nineties, and saw a number of guys only just pass with probably as much if not more talent than I at the time.
I'm still in the trade, most of those guys aren't, and a number of them bring their vehicles to me now for repairs. The difference is I love what I do, they didn't.
I've had through my business, over the past 15 or so years, about 8 apprentices or trainees and all but one lasted no longer than 2 years due, I feel in part at least, to my work ethic. One left for a dealership and was fast tracked through their apprenticeship (whom I told wasn't fit to be a 3rd year apprentice yet), whilst others found their way into the mines (appologies to any mine workers or dealership folk, but as a rule up here at least they seem to accept anyone who can breath without instructions). The only one that has stuck it out is almost ready to turn tradesman, and he has such pride in his work that some days he has a dig at me if he thinks I may be a little lazy with the product we offer our customers.
The secret is pride in a trade, and unfortunately, it's not there in the current generation (as a whole). Trades are not sought after, nor believed to have any worth. It's now seen as something they could do, so they have something to fall back on later, not a career.
Sorry if that comes across as a rant, but I've been looking for a new apprentice for nearly 12 months and the majority just don't cut it in my eyes even for a start. I've started a young fella who just isn't getting the whole pride in your workplace/ work/ self even. Maybe tomorrow he'll understand! :D
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I have been panel beating for 23 years.
On Wednesday this week we have a 4th year coming out of his time. He is hopeless. It doesn't matter how hard you try and teach someone the right way to do things. It seems the tafe teacher comes along and teaches them to take short cuts and makes jobs easier for them selves.
I think it's all about this generation only wanting a job and that's about it.
I myself pride myself on quality work and I am well known in the industry for my abilities on major smash work. Even though I don't work on the floor these days I still get assessors ringing me and asking me to fix certain jobs as they can't find anyone who can do it.
It really is a dying trade, everyone only wants to fit new parts these days and there ain't no money in that!
Sent from Behind you...BOO
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With the ongoing downturn in the building industry, my son (a first fix carpenter) often hears of apprentices being signed off before they have completely finished their training so their employer can let them go. He gave me an example of a chippie being signed off who hadn't even completed the roofing module but is now working in Adelaide and can't build a conventional roof unless it is truss construction.
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Is also very similar in professions as well as trades
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With the ongoing downturn in the building industry, my son (a first fix carpenter) often hears of apprentices being signed off before they have completely finished their training so their employer can let them go. He gave me an example of a chippie being signed off who hadn't even completed the roofing module but is now working in Adelaide and can't build a conventional roof unless it is truss construction.
Sadly Marschy pitched roof construction is rarely taught at TAFE in QLD. Trusses are the way of the future apparnetly .... unless you are doing an exposed hardwood ceiling ..... :S
Cheers Chippy :D
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I'm a 33 yo chippy, done my time with my father (a builder) doing every aspect of the trade plus more. I chose this trade because I wanted to be a chippy/builder and a good one!
Currently I'm a supervisor for a medium size building company and see plenty of trades come and go. All too often when I ask apprentices and tradesmen how or why they got into the industry the answer is I needed a job! It really annoys me as to how many keen people miss out because of these dust kickers!
Another problem is with our so called skills shortage they are just pumping these kids through their trade courses without them becoming Tradesmen. Finally there are the employers who use apprentices as cheap labour and not take the time to teach them anything so when they become a tradesman and get their own apprentice. ........ The downhill slide continues!
Lots of tradesmen around but masters of their trade are few and far between!
Rant over!
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Too busy updating their facebook status.
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Straight out of my sons cert 3 in carpentry manual. The national code numbers have since changed so no point in quoting them, but third year is all about roof construction, the unit descriptions are apparently still similar. A third year appy my son supervises is at school this week learning the following...
Third year
Unit Title
Construct ceiling frames
Construct a pitched roof
Construct eaves
Construct advanced roofs
Erect roof trusses
If they don't teach this in cyclone prone QLD, wow I'd be gobsmacked
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Too busy updating their facebook status.
Spot on mate Facebook is the worst thing that has happened to this generation of workers and Employers.
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....... and some of the young generation apprentices lack the enthusiasm, passion and work ethic that is clearly still evident in older tradesman as if they are there just there for the money and that's all. The skill level between the older and younger generation (qualified) is quiet evident (in most cases) that I have seen and that's just my opinion.
........ Couple that with some of the younger generations attitude to being told something ( let alone getting off their ar$e & DOING something)& is any wonder some of our new tradesmen are a bit lacking.Classrooms & books can only do so much, the rest has to be learned ( & taught) in a hands on fashion. "Learn by doing" was a saying I heard a lot.
I think bullfrog and BD have nailed it IMO. I've been laying bricks for 20 years now, and a bad case of the CBF's seems to have gotten into a lot of the younger blokes! There is no passion for the trade they do, no pride in their work; they just seem to want a quick buck by doing as little as possible.
Even when I was an apprentice, a lot of the guys at trade school were there because they didn't want to be at school, and the parents have given them an ultimatum to get a job or else. So they fell into bricklaying, which they really don't want to do either cos its too much like hard work, or its not one of the "glamour" trades.
I got into bricklaying as my grandfather was one. I remember being fascinated that he could build something with his bare hands, and be proud of it. I love my job, and take pride in my work. That is something that is very hard to instill into todays youth. (not all of them are that bad tho ;D)
Having said all that, I work for a big mob, and we have anywhere up to 10 apprentices. As a foreman, I need to make sure our young blokes are learning their trade. Three of them are Burmese refugees who we sponsored 4 years ago. They have since become qualified brickies, and without a doubt are some of the hardest working, skilled blokes we have. Some of our "home grown" apprentices would do well to take a leaf out of their book.
Cheers
Matt
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Try checking out qualified horticulturalists
These days there just a bloke with ute and a shovel ( and they don't even know how to use the shovel )
The cert 3 is a joke
Cert 3 a joke heh, I think only to those incompetent readies that try to sneak by. I currently hold a Cert 3 for which I had to earn to get an electrical licence. Unfortunately with our younger generation its all about what they don't have to do to get qualified. The system grants the TAFE teachers no power to fail them anymore.
Sent from Billy's iPhone using Tapatalk
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Indeed, it has to start with pride in your chosen skill but having said that some guys that get in are not cut out for it, and the only way they fiond out is to at least have a go and have the balls to say that it's beyond them. Others just.... drift through.. too stupid to realise how poor they are at their work.
I think the most dangerous things I've done is work near apprentices but when I was an apprentice there were a couple of tradies who might have felt the same LOL!
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My son is about to embark into a partnership with a bloke who he did his appreticeship with. Their plan is to take on an apprentice as soon as their workload permits.
My son did a pre-vocational course to get his apprenticeship and was then recommended to a builder who contacted the TAFE where he did his course who was looking for the keenest and brightest from the pre-voc course. My son plans on doing the same.
His current employer took on an apprentice who was a friend of his family who is hopeless, and due to his close association with his family is now reluctant to get rid of him.
There are smart ways of getting enthusiastic apprentices.
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As I work for a TAFE Provider, ill make a couple of comments:
Its very hard to get good trades teachers. Why put up with the low wages and job insecurity, most are sessionals or contract. We have some very dedicated teachers who have low job security.
The teachers do have the power to fail them, but the $$ return to the TAFE is much less for a NC or WD result.
WE (GOTAFE) have invested over $13million in the last 4 years in Traditional Trades facilities, but then see private providers who work out of the back of a truck poach employers by offering to train their apprentices off campus/on site for less$$.
With all the Commonwealth Money around at the moment, every high school seems to be putting in a new trades wing to teach Cert 3's with no industry connections. I worry about the job competency of these students.
We work in partnership with employers, and employ Centre Managers and Industry liaison staff to ensure the employer gets what they want. Our Industry Satisfaction results are running at 90% plus. We have some big ones, SPC, Furphy's, etc, who take a big interest in their Apprentice's training program. It would be great if all employers did this.
We actively form linkages with young students and schools thru VCAL programs, and then work to get the students into work experience programs in our TAFE Tester programs. We have had many great ongoing employment stories come from this program, particularly Koorie Students.
We then wonder why Metropolitan funding models are then applied to Regional areas, and force us to drop programs that increase workforce capacity at a local level, but only just break even, forcing local kids to have to seek further studies away from home. Very disheartening for all.
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Its not just the trade skills though. I work by myself and do things to make my job easier eg never go back to the ute empty handed. Trying to instil these ideas into the young blokes is bloody hard work, just think about the job a bit before you touch the tools!
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as someone who has been a Carpenter for over 20 years now it comes as no surprise to me what was written in the paper, i've spent most of today fixing stuff done by other so called tradesman Carpenters that a 2nd year apprentice should be able to do ::) ::)
i'd struggle to recommend people in many trades to do a job for someone if they asked me for a tradie to do work for them, the standard of work i see day in and day out done by all of the trades is pretty ordinary to tell you the truth. i spent the last 2 hours today going through 11 units and writing out a defect list for the plasterers to fix, i think they are in for a surprise when they show up and see it ;D ;D
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I have been in the building industry for the past 24 years and trained as a carpenter and then went on with my clerk of works certificate. I too believe that the majority of apprentices that are coming through the trades at the moment are not up to scratch. My last employer had several apprentices that were not up to scratch and they were given a letter to allow them to receive their papers early, sometimes up to 9 months early.
In the building industry one of the main problems I believe is the specialisation of trades. You may be a carpenter but never stand a frame or build a roof. Plumbers are sometimes just drainers and don't do any work inside.
Unfortunately budgets and pricing also play a major part of who is hired for the work, we have plasterers on site at the moment who were $170k below the next contractor. The management team took the risk and it is not working as we have sub standard tradesman that are handed tools and taught on the job in a rush. The dollar rules a lot of jobs and the time where you would spend time doing it properly has gone.
My job as a carpenter/builder has now changed to a management position and also an OH&S nightmare where the paperwork takes over. Some days I just want to put the nail bag back on and swing a hammer again.
GG
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As I work for a TAFE Provider, ill make a couple of comments:
Its very hard to get good trades teachers. Why put up with the low wages and job insecurity, most are sessionals or contract. We have some very dedicated teachers who have low job security.
The teachers do have the power to fail them, but the $$ return to the TAFE is much less for a NC or WD result.
WE (GOTAFE) have invested over $13million in the last 4 years in Traditional Trades facilities, but then see private providers who work out of the back of a truck poach employers by offering to train their apprentices off campus/on site for less$$.
With all the Commonwealth Money around at the moment, every high school seems to be putting in a new trades wing to teach Cert 3's with no industry connections. I worry about the job competency of these students.
We work in partnership with employers, and employ Centre Managers and Industry liaison staff to ensure the employer gets what they want. Our Industry Satisfaction results are running at 90% plus. We have some big ones, SPC, Furphy's, etc, who take a big interest in their Apprentice's training program. It would be great if all employers did this.
We actively form linkages with young students and schools thru VCAL programs, and then work to get the students into work experience programs in our TAFE Tester programs. We have had many great ongoing employment stories come from this program, particularly Koorie Students.
We then wonder why Metropolitan funding models are then applied to Regional areas, and force us to drop programs that increase workforce capacity at a local level, but only just break even, forcing local kids to have to seek further studies away from home. Very disheartening for all.
Yeah I work for a TAFE too, the largest Trade & Technical Institute in Oz, and it is in QLD. Purpose built.
One of the problems we face is that we are now in a contestable market where we are held by State Government rules & regulations and other private RTO's aren't and can apply for funding the same as us. Makes it very difficult on a sloping play ground for funding allocations where they can hire a small shed to teach in and we have to build $200M facilities.
As other guys have said, our teachers are paid set dollars but the ever present mining $$$ lures a lot away and why wouldn't they go when 2nd year apprentices can get $80K at the mines which is more than our teachers get. Yet some of our guys are just amazing how they love to pass on their knowledge.
I am not a teacher but it still frustrates me to see how the employers rort the system. One of the problems we face is that the apprentice finishes his time but the employer won't sign him off for 6-12 months. We get paid on completion of their training so therefore we don't get paid until they sign off. Campbell then says how incompetent we are for not sticking to budget. We can't win.
I did my time as a Telecom/PMG Tech. Four years as an an apprentice learning all facets of our trade. Now they do a 6 week course and are eligible to be called the same as me. Where is the justice in that.
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I did 3.5 years in my trade.
I only completed my time early because the company that was training me closed down.
2 years latter I looked into another trade to further myself in the industry and when the tafe teacher cane out to work they said with what you have done we can sign you of right now.
I asked if they would like to see some work I had done and they said no the paper work is here.
All they were thinking about is how to get as many kids through as possible.
I ended up going to another job and doing it properly because how stupid would you feel someone asking you to do something in your trade and you not knowing what to do........
A bit like the girls on My Kitchen Rules tonight....lol......
It is all about the DOLLAR now days with training and not about how it makes you feel when the job is done.
A great tradesman will always step back and look at their work when it is done and think to them self wow I just built that....
Rod....... 18 years in the trade....
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Pretty much retired now except for the onerous demands of my technically useless, extended genetic pool and generally I'd agree it's the blind leading the blind nowadays. To be fair though I have witnessed a quantum change over my lifetime from tools and materials being expensive and labour being relatively cheap to the reverse situation. There's no doubt Asia Inc has accelerated that change more recently, as well as the onerous domestic red tape, OHS, documentaion and overlawyering to contend with.
When I was a lad the old man's tools were all hickory handles, manual saws you had to set and sharpen, Stanley hand planes and chisels, etc and most sheds had hand drills and a brace and bits because the price of a simple electric drill was out of the question for most. The hand tools were expensive so you looked after them or else you'd get a boot up the backside from the old man or tradey. That graduated slowly to quality power tools ie a Makita planer that you sharpened and adjusted the blades until you just replaced them and now with Chinese stuff you can throw many of them away when they're blunt after 1 blade reversal. Hell I can remember those Champion spark plug cleaners and testers before spark plugs became throwaways, along with the contact points you used to hone carefully.
Technology change has seen old skills die. Who changes contact points let alone resets engine timing nowadays and hydraulic and shim tappets don't need much attention. While PVC plumbing and plasterboard changed whole trade skills in the building industry and you don't need to carry oxy around much anymore. Then there were the good old days when you could fix yer own car. Yeah? Well that's because you bloody well had to regularly unlike the service and forget machinery we're spoiled with today. Todays QA tolerances coupled with hi tech lubricants and coolants means most mechanics don't see the insides of engines, transmissions and diffs anymore. Not even worth doing a head job anymore, just chuck in a complete low k engine for the odd owner that doesn't maintain their car regularly and it goes bang clunk before 10-12 yrs and 200-300000km you could bank on otherwise.
Basically who makes their own furniture or sews their own clothes nowadays and why not? Like my Simpson top loader a few weeks back and the missus says it's stopping at the start of the rinse cycle and me who can fix anything so let me see. Hmm.. if I advance the timer on it runs through the rest of the cycle so that's just a new timer chum and a new one is $180. Hmmm.. when did we buy this thing? Delves into receipts/warranty file and that's right- Keith Bowden Electrical 8kg for $845 10.5 yrs ago and only just heard they closed up so what's available online? New 9.5kg Simpson toploader on special from Appliancesonline, delivered and installed and take away the old one for $647. Click! all done that arvo and by 11am next morning the new one was sitting in its place and the missus was all smiles again. I'm a real whizz at fixing these things nowadays with all my experience if I do say so myself ;D
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G'day prodigyrf,
You've hit the nail on the head.
Most things aren't serviceable these days.
Quicker to replace and in most cases cheaper as well.
Welcome to the world of, If it's broke throw it away.
I'll have a crack at fixing anything if it mostly involves just my time.
I've spent a couple hours with the odd can or two murdered to fix a $20 toy of the kids.
:cheers:
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They were saying the same things when I did my diesel trade 30yrs ago.
Not as hard, not as good.
My exp is its how connected the apprentice and the workplace is more than anything.
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The worst thing to happen to all apprentices are those STINKING Training Groups...originally started in VIC during (the recession we had to have) to help 3rd and 4th years complete their time because they had been laid off as their company went under. They have now become Labour Hire Companies who couldnt give a sh...t about the kids , its all about the Gov rebates/incentives.
Its not always the kids fault , I,ve seen some 3rd year Electricians who,ve been used by the system and done little more than dig trenches. >:( >:(
Unfortnatley the days of training up your Apprentice so they become a valuable asset to you seem to be gone....
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I find it impossible to get anyone to show up and quote on work anymore.
Let alone a "good/bad" tradey.
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I find it impossible to get anyone to show up and quote on work anymore.
Let alone a "good/bad" tradey.
Reminds me of a certain scaffold hire company individual who writes his prospect sales quotes/requests on a yellow post it note and loses it. Ring again, (gosh so sorry I lost your contact details, thanks for calling back, was his response) guy comes out, measures up, takes pics, gets my email to send quote, which I might add never arrived - its now a year later. There was no way I was ringing again. I don't have the patience to deal with idiots.
Not to mention the two young clowns left to reno a rental property next door. Problem is what they don't realise their behaviour only reflects on the guy they work for and the real estate agent who contracted them in the first place. Word travels.
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They were saying the same things when I did my diesel trade 30yrs ago.
Not as hard, not as good.
My exp is its how connected the apprentice and the workplace is more than anything.
Couldn't agree more, my son is keen as mustard and made the most of his apprenticeship. He had good teachers/employers who were willing to teach him the skills he needs to make him a good chippy. His TAFE teacher worked with my father over 20 years ago. My father was a building supervisor for the Department of Housing and Construction, so the teacher and my son had a rapore right from the word go. If he had questions he asked and got responses. Now, pay and conditions, that's another issue all together, his current employer is getting good consistent work, but has somehow failed to pay his superannuation for nearly nine months now. He's now looking at contracting for himself so he can make some coin for himself instead of being used and abused, as this seems to be the norm now-adays.
After he did his pre-voc course, he did some work experience to try and get an apprenticeship, and the number of turds out there who kept stringing him along, saying "Can you come back next week, I need to assess you a bit more before I make a decision about whether I'll take you on". There was never an offer in the cards, they simply needed labourers who they weren't willing to pay
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Couldn't agree more with this thread. I renovated my house a few years back and there is a clear link between quality of work and age of tradesman at my place.
Interestingly I discovered my old school yearbooks while cleaning out the shed over Xmas and had a flick through. Noticed that when I was in Year 7 most of the graduating boys wanted to get an apprenticeship. By the time my year were graduating it was all about getting into Uni. A trade was viewed by my school as your option if you FAILED to get into uni. All the pride had been stripped out of trades.
AM
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Now, pay and conditions, that's another issue all together, his current employer is getting good consistent work, but has somehow failed to pay his superannuation for nearly nine months now. He's now looking at contracting for himself so he can make some coin for himself instead of being used and abused, as this seems to be the norm now-adays.
After he did his pre-voc course, he did some work experience to try and get an apprenticeship, and the number of turds out there who kept stringing him along, saying "Can you come back next week, I need to assess you a bit more before I make a decision about whether I'll take you on". There was never an offer in the cards, they simply needed labourers who they weren't willing to pay
He only has to ring up the ATO and his Super will be sorted Marschy.
The tradeys I know wouldn't use up kids but you need to understand work experience kids, trainees and apprentices cost you dearly at first because they hold you up and unless they're something special re keenness and ability, tradeys lose enthusiasm for training pretty quickly. Hence the pre-voc route nowadays to weed out the majority of feather bedded, cossetted kids coming through the Ed system full of themselves and stamps and ticks for 'most participated'. Even when they're the pick of the crop the sudden drag on productivity plus admin oncosts and red tape has seen Gummint front up to try and offset that. In that sense it's like going back in time where the family picked up all expenses for the tradesman or artisan to indenture their son for the right of entry into the precious Guild after many years.
Welcome to Groundhog day with your little preciousses mums and dads.
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He only has to ring up the ATO and his Super will be sorted Marschy.
So will his job and his relationship with his boss
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I may as well add my two cents worth. 8)
When I left school, age 15, it was just what blokes did; find a trade to start an apprenticeship. No schoolies week, in fact most would have been like me and had been working part time after school.
I was lucky and had a few trades to pick from, started as a Sheet Metal Worker for an air-conditioning company. The apprenticeship then was a very strict contract between the employer and you. No mucking about, work hard, get pay little but learnt heaps, including real life experiences. If you were a smart arse the tradies would soon sort you out.
Left the trade 10 years later when the trade industry was going through a bad time. Sick of being out of work from time to time. Went on the dole once for 6 weeks and that was the worst 6 weeks I have had. Just felt so wrong to be receiving money for nothing and no job to go to.
So things are just a little different now days. ???
Kevin
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So will his job and his relationship with his boss
Sorry, didn't see the bit about thinking of leaving so it can wait until he does and it will all be paid with interest.
Also be aware the ATO are a bit more subtle than that and send out a 'general letter' stating the lucky winner has received the prize of a randomly selected audit and please have all your docs at the ready when we call on such and such a date, or if that is not convenient please call 1800-ATOluvvies to arrange another suitable time.
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We advertised for an apprentice just before Christmas. Would have had around 150 applications.
Only 2 of those applicants expressed any interest in the actual trade they applied for and they were ruled out due to living to far away and unlicensed. We thought at that time of year we would get a lot having just completed grade 12 but didn't get 1. I guess they were too busy on schoolies to worry about their future.
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I personally believe that just about anyone can complete an apprenticeship and the time it takes is really irrelevant. A wise man told me you will learn more in the first 6 months out of your trade than you did in the 4 years it took you to do it. He was right. It is up the individual and there work ethic. Some people have it and some don't. The first 6 months out if your trade you have no more excuses. Some people step up. A third year apprentice if taught properly should be able to do any job a tradesman can. Just not as quick as they haven't learnt the tricks of the trade yet.
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I'm qualified in my 'trade', over 12 years now....... I still just a young fella!
My dads a fitter and Turner and later in life a cabinet maker from many years, my eldest brother is a carpenter, my next eldest brother is a horticulturist and head hunted, so we are all tradey type of family, learnt to have pride and passion.
General consensus now, even around my younger mates and younger cousins, (I'm not that old...) is that they will drop out of school become tradies,
My cousin, not the sharpest tool in the box, plans to become a plumber, even admits himself he's not smart enough for much else. Sorry to all plumbers, but thats as good as the new intake will be.
There's no pride, passion, thoughtfulness or even common sense around ...
I employ a lot of different nationalities in my job, both young and old and the amount of qualified people that just can't think ahead baffles me...
time management,
something's just can't get taught!
Irritated me no end whenthe Electrician doing the wiring for my house renovation charged me $20 hour(on top of his extortionate rate) just for the work experience kid,.....
The Sparky spent more time going out to his Van and back........
So called 'tradies' irritate and annoy me!!
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I concur with most posts here, but I believe the problem is not just limited to trades and or services.
Its everywhere and its the attitude that is the problem.
The younger generations seem to have no pride or care in their work (exceptions obviously and being very broad I realise, but I'm focusing on the majority)
Its more important to look cool, attend the right party's and wear the right clothes.
Being "liked"by everyone is far more important than integrity or honour.
Respect??? Isn't that one of those really old songs by some really old singer?
It appears the biggest problem these days is not be blocked by a friend on facebook. OMG serious issue here!!!
Unfortunately as previous posts haves said, teachers and other educators no longer have the power to discipline or correct little Johnny.
I currently employ a 2nd year apprentice through a recruitment agency (got sick of having slackers who were wasting my time and theirs cos daddy told them they had to get a trade.)
He gets reviewed every couple of weeks and "babied" through the whole process. I get asked for progress reports and achievement outlines..............
WTF???
How bout, just knuckling down, learning the trade, being respectful and showing some courtesy.
Hell no, if a mistake is made, we need to analyse (read - anal - lies) why its happening and put procedures in place to correct the teaching program and implement further training.
Its never a case of little Johnny just effed up. Or lost a tool or forgot something.
Did I ask him if he packed it away? Did I check he checked? Did I give him a 3 step written program to allow for learing outcomes?
Did I wipe his donkey?
Where does it end? The problem I have is I really need apprentices. :'( :'( :'(
What I reckon I should do instead is find some semi retired bloke who has integrity and pride, who wants some extra income. Pay him cash and have him work 3 days a week.
Please PM your resume................ ;D ;D ;D
Like our festering govenment, we need to just chuck the whole lot out and start again.
Sometimes it is best to stop flogging a dead horse and start training a new colt. If only the same applied to apprentices. LOL
my 2c plus 0.2c GST's worth
Brian
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^^^^ In regards to the older bloke, that is the way we are starting to think as well. They might not keep up with the younger blokes but if you factor in the f ups and time wasted dicking around by the younger lot we would be much better off with probably a better built product.
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Is also very similar in professions as well as trades
Spot on, we get young guys in who don't know one end of a shovel from the other and require an instruction manual for using a claw hammer. But university does not teach anyone much, all it does is prove you have the ability to learn. So far out of touch with what the job requires, no graduate could complete any task without major supervision & instruction. As said many times, attitude of young people completely baffles the old schoolers. Tardiness ie late for work: since when is it a workplace's problem that the bus gets in 10min after start time? Get the previous one! I could not care less if you sit around for 20mins. The guys that do come in on time go and buy coffee which seems to be the trend. Bugger me, I had a casual job during uni and you had to clock in before start time, 1 min late and the first 15mins were docked from your pay. Aargh, could go on and on and on in this thread, fact of life that any one with even an ounce of ethics and application will be a success in life and always have a job and earn the most. Rant over for now.
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A lot of young folks today, simply don't want to work... end of story.
In 1972 at age 12, i would peddle me pushy from Carina to the Pacific Golf Club and line up to be chosen as a caddy. That involved walking the entire 18 holes and lugging the players clubs.
It was not a lot of money to be earned doing the caddy bit, but ya got a few bucks if you could find a few lost balls and stuff.
It was a given, that they bought your lunch, so it was a sanger and double sars at the 19th hole in those days.
At age 13, pumping petrol after school until i snagged an apprenticeship at 14, which really was far too young.
Hated school, hated tafe, but managed a pass in everything, but no honours or credits.
So i was a mechanic, but not an A grade, and i couldn't/didn't care about sitting for a bit of paper.
I went on to specialize in Mercs, Jags, Fiats and Rollers before giving it all away for real estate in 88.
Even these days, all i wanted was a bit of a mowing run to pay a few bills..... stuff me, 75 regular clients and some casuals and i have my ring hanging out most days now...... bugger it...but i can't give 'em up, as most are elderly or sick or both.
Oh well, life goes on, but i guess the big difference is, i wanted a job and to play my part in society and always have.
The youth of today for the larger part, are as useless as a pergola on a submarine.
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A lot of young folks today, simply don't want to work... end of story.
.......
The youth of today for the larger part, are as useless as a pergola on a submarine.
Game over. Here endeth the lesson for today from JC.
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Game over. Here endeth the lesson for today from JC.
(http://www.hairfysh.com/images/Icons/Smileys/deal.gif)
:cheers:
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Pity we have descended (as per previous similar threads) into another youth bashing and "not as good as in my day" thread, completely away from the original competency discussion. All this is a rehash of:
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=23615.0 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=23615.0)
Time to move on.
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Training an apprentice is predominantly the responsibility of a tradesman. If the standards have slipped the bulk of the responsibility for the degradation of standards must therefore rest with the tradesman, not TAFE or poor work ethic.
We have a young girl at work who's work ethic sucks. What does her manager do, who should be mentoring and monitoring her, nothing.
A similar situation occurs with my sons work environment. The second year apprentice has a sh1t work ethic. My son rips into him daily to pull his finger out, but he gets told 'Get stuffed, your not my boss'. What does the boss say about the second years poor work ethic, nothing.
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I personally believe that just about anyone can complete an apprenticeship and the time it takes is really irrelevant. A wise man told me you will learn more in the first 6 months out of your trade than you did in the 4 years it took you to do it. He was right. It is up the individual and there work ethic. Some people have it and some don't. The first 6 months out if your trade you have no more excuses. Some people step up. A third year apprentice if taught properly should be able to do any job a tradesman can. Just not as quick as they haven't learnt the tricks of the trade yet.
depends on the Trade....
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I went through the trades that deal with all the properties on my rent roll and the only company that we kept were the electrical guys.
I found that most of the trades guys could not justify their $/hr once the quotes were broken down.
These days I have a heap of dedicated younger blokes ( who haven't gone to the mines) doing most of the work I need done.
There young, enthusiastic, and do good work.
They may not have the old fashioned skills of being able to plane a piece of timber with a mahogany handled plane but they do have the skills to deal with current construction and renovation requirements that wasn't dealt with by older blokes. Like everything building has changed and is changing year by year. So I think most you guys have to recognise and respect that the skill set is going to change dramatically.
Cheers Nomad.
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There is some qualified research coming out to show the digital generation is wired differently to previous ones. Kids always have stamina and lack of concentration issues first up in the workplace but there's no doubt the ones growing up with instant screen gratification are a different breed to my day when imagination came from reading books (and listening to radio). Information overload might be a problem for them too in that regard with flicking from one snippet or image to another and suffering jack of all info, master of no deeper understanding and knowledge. A bit more ADHD than previous gens.
Then there's the problem of age entering apprenticeships nowadays- must finish HS and then pre-voc and with a rest year they're often 19 or 20 before starting whereas they used to be 15 or 16 and more malleable. As well it was their first wage packet so the low apprentice wage was not an issue and by the time it was the 2nd yr increment came along, while mum and dad paid all their hidden household rent, bills and tucker. For better or worse it's different for them.
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I'm not going to comment on other industry, but I'll give my 2 cents worth on my game. Both sides of the coin.
Commercial fitout. Just started my 19th year in the building industry, all in commercial fitout. Qualified carpenter/joiner, worked my way up to site manager, project planning and now project managment. Our company has been around for over 40 years and used to try and put 2 apprentices on every year since the 70's, I started at the end of 94 when apprenticeships were thin on the ground. I was one of 80 applicants, into 30 interviewed and 10 for a 2nd interview, for 2 positions. You earnt it, it wasn't handed to you.
Come 2002 and we were ringing Tafe schools looking for pre-apprentices as our ads would yield 2 maybe 3 replies from unsuitable applicants. Work was flush, so it's a buyers market, the kids you wouldn't even offer an interview too 8 years earlier were almost being offered the job over the phone! Union EBA rates, 36 hour rdo week and we are doing the begging to the applicant!
So now if your lucky you end up with one good one and a dud. Up until 2003 the company had never sacked an apprentice before, the not so good ones were at least given the chance to finish their time and get their ticket before being shown the door. Only last year we sacked our last two apprentices and they will probably be the last apprentices through the company. Between the 2 of them they had about 120-150 sick days in ONE year! One of the kids was starting to come good and show promise (too little too late), the other was only capable of catching flies with his mouth.
The good kids are still their like the 'olden days', but there is alot more work around and the kids that would normally be knocked back for an apprenticeship are being hired.
The closure of technical schools over the years could be part to blame, teachers/schools no longer pushing 'trades' as a goal, but more of a fall back, maybe a lack of pride in being a 'tradie'? It seems only in recent years has the govenment realised our trades shortage and implemented some better school programmes.
On the job training? Are the previous generation training the current generation properly? I've met some tradesmen in my time who have been in the industry for 30+ years and are completely hopeless! Rough, poor work ethic and can't/won't teach you anything, I called them 'life support systems for nail bags'. You can be old and completely useless, it's not a young only thing!
We had a cabinet maker in our factory, 30+ years with the company, a brillant tradesman/craftsman who kept to himself. Unfortunately kept to himself too much because in that 30 years he NEVER showed any apprentice anything, would only work by himself. Great role model?
Add to the stupidly short timeframes we are given to complete large fitout jobs (and on tight margins), our tradies have no time to spend half a day with the 2nd year showing him how to hang a door, or explain setouts and understanding construction drawings. So the poor kids end up being given the jobs that require the least training / supervision.
Yes, the current generation needs to pull their socks up and roll their sleaves up too, but the people who say "back in my day" I bet their boss thought they, along with their entire generation were usless too. While age brings experience, it also brings a fading memory 8)
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With an extended family the bil pointed out how his 2 are 'wired differently' to my 2 (both with a an elder boy and younger girl) and then we watch the nephew's 3 tackers with ipads, etc and shake our heads. Mine had no mobiles at school, let alone touch screens, although the pressure was on for a mobile with my youngest. His 2 (18 and 21 now)were the vanguard with mobiles and iphones, etc. I'm at his place and totting up and working out some figures on pencil and paper and I've got the answer before they can even dig out a calculator and they're puzzled how both dad and I can do such quick sums.
When they've drifted off the bil describes how his 2 haven't got a clue about numbers and they'd be fair game for any spin merchant or simply the wrong change at the shops. He describes how when shopping they'll grab some 'special tag' item while he says no grab 1 or 2 of that different weight/size one one because it's/they're better value. This without his glasses to read the cents/100g or whatever, but he like me can do the quick sums in his head while they even struggle to get their heads around black and white unit pricing for dummies. I recall my 2 at their age and I can see he's right and there's nothing special about our kids.
So we're sitting around a family bbq on the weekend and he's just replaced their dishwasher and a freezer and grumbling these things probably come in 3s and I'm nodding about the WM figures and how I'd noticed our fridge is about the same vintage. Then he gives sis a quiet serve for wanting to trip off with some fancy priced Smeg while he's more down to earth like me and I'm backing him up with the WM sums before SWMBO starts getting any bright ideas. You know guys- They hardly even consult us when they make these decisions, yada, yada. I drop in the price of a Speed Queen WM I'd considered and rejected and my lad got it instantly but I could see his 2s eyes glazing over just like bil said.
That's his 'wired differently'point that they no longer have an intuitive feel for figures and the mental arithmetic that goes with it and you can see where that leaves them (the eldest at uni studying comp prog mind you) Now recall those sums- 10.5yr old 8kg washer cost $845 and needs $180 in parts without labour for most so even in Mrfixit's case that's a no brainer with a new 9kg one for $647 delivered, installed and old one gone. We can forgive the kids for not understanding what inflation does to the equation and just stick to those nominal sums here. Top of the line Speed Queen on special for $1995 delivered and by all accounts proud owners get 20-25 yrs trouble free washing. On the original nominal sums the new one only has to last 8 yrs while a SQ will need to do almost 25yrs whereas the upfront difference of around $1350 can be put to better use. Basically SQs are for our cara parks and the like.
It's a problem for life if you don't have an intuitive feel for numbers, just like literacy skills and the deductive thinking and reasoning that go hand in hand with them and some are already skeptical about wiring future generations the popular and easy way-
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/computers-ok-not-in-silicon-valley-20111106-1n1qc.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/computers-ok-not-in-silicon-valley-20111106-1n1qc.html)
Given the missus is a JP teacher plus my anecdotal experience I tend to agree with their philosophy.
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I got a cert 2 in agriculture this year whilst working on a cattle station.
Here is how I got it.
I copied the answers from a sheet of paper to my own sheet.
I was allowed to do that because the aboriginal guys are allowed to so why not the white blokes.
I got no practical training and basically got it because I been competent at doing the job.
BUT
the private company doing the training get $5k for every sign up from the government, all they have to do is sign me up, fill out the answer sheet based on practical assessment over a 6 month period and bingo, after 6 months they get $5k and I get $1,800 tools for trade.
I'm a bore runner, fencer and general handy guy and had no training really apart from a 10minute guide on how to join fencing wire.....lol
I thought it was a total joke and was borderline on sobbing somebody in........
We have been opn the rough end of Shit mechanics for years and I've now learned how to fix most things myself and got some help from others like the my swag guys........
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Whilst on the subject.......the mechanic we had on our station gets called a fitter by the boss and I'm the fixer.
His idea of being a mechanic is pulling out an alternator and replacing it, where as I take it out and replace the brushes.....
I use fencing wire and baling twine to repair a broken throttle cable on a Suzuki vitara to get it out the paddock and into the workshop because he wanted to wait till a replacement was sent out a few weeks later.....
I'm not a mechanic.....he is......I learned stuff like this myself from using my noodle.....he learned how to undo bolts and fit a new one.....
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The old tradesmen were (are) craftsmen. They made everything and had pride in what they did.
Love to see an old tradesmen working and getting tips from them.
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check how your house guttering is joined on the corners, pop rivets and slastic , in the older days would of been soldered, and nothing wrong with that, times change. Time and money is king.
2 CENTS WORTH
LAF