MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tuco on November 04, 2012, 12:18:21 PM
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This has been a concern of mine for some years.
I've had many instances where the amount of fuel displayed on the pump meter is way OVER what I got!
I do realise that if I'm topping up a tank and only going on the vehicle fuel gauge (which is NOT linear) then I'm lucky to estimate to the closest 10L the amount that is needed to fill the tank. I accept this.
However - when I'm filling an empty tank or container of known capacity, then I feel that the dispensing pump should give me correct measure.
A few examples ....
Filled a 20L 'Spectre" red jerrycan, which has a number of 'guide' calibrations moulded into the opaque plastic. I stopped at the top '20L' line and was amazed when I turned to see the fuel bowser displaying 27 Litres!!! The pump was definitely zeroed prior to starting by the console operator. When I questioned the accuracy and wanted to know when the pump was last checked for calibration - I simply got a blank stare from the junior console operator. I had to pay for 27 litres!
The 'Sub' tank in our Nissan Patrol is shown as 30L in the vehicle specs. Most times it 'clicks' of at 30.2 to 30.6 litres to fill the tank. There have been many instances where the bowser indicates figures up to 36 Litres!
Our dual fuel Ford F150 had 2 gas tanks. When empty, the normal amount to fill them was 78 to 79 litres before the nozzle auto clicked off. To my dismay one day it was showing 100 litres and still pumping!!
I can accept that there may be times where the pumps get out of calibrtion due to error or adjustment of some sort - but how come these innacuracies are always in the fuel suppliers favour? Simple logic and averages say that there should be some that short supply and some that over supply.
The questionable suppliers have been the two major retailers sites !! Have never had the occurence happen at an independant.
I'm in Queensland and tried to contact the Department of Weights and Measures - only to find it seems that they no longer exist and 'self certification' is now the go!
Something fishy here - the major supermarkets are supplying 4c fuel discount on purchases >$30 which on $1.50 fuel equates to a 2.66% discount - then they jack up the price by fiddling the calibration by up to (in my case) 7 litres extra in a 20 litre container =35% !!!
ANYONE ELSE WITH SIMILAR EXPERIENCE ???
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Have you only just caught on this racket has been going on for years ??? ??? :cheers:
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Did you take into consideration expansion and contraction? That's why you should fill up in the cool of the morning...
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A guage is not accurate. You would need to empty the tanks and fill up to know if you what you are suggesting is correct.
Weights and measures are normally pretty well on the mark. Agree with D4D.
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Petrol pumps always record the volume at ambient temp ie whatever is the outside temp.
Fuel will expand and contract based on temperature, in the fuel industry every measurement of fuel is normalised to 15 degrees.
D4d is correct that in the cool of the morning in theory you will get more fuel than in the heat of the day.
However it would not get anywhere near 20 percent or even 10 percent error.
I have been out of the industry too long now but I used to have the conversion factors and we were talking a correction factor of 0.9945 for example.
Anyway you will always get that volume of fuel at that temp. Eg if you fill up a 30l container at 10 degree you will get 30l, if the day heats up to 35 degrees then in theory your container will over flow as the fuel expands and hence you have more that 30l and vice versa.
Hope this has helped explain somewhat ???
Left the fuel industry 10 years ago and moved into the wine game, tastes a heap better :cheers:
Jim
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Hi,
If the volumetric coefficient of expansion of diesel is .00082/C°, and petrol is .00095/C°, I doubt you would be able to casually measure the difference between a cool and warm day unless you were buying fuel by the truck load.
I was right peeved when I put 21 Litres of fuel in a motorcycle tank that was rated as 20L, so I notified Weights and Measures.
They came out and checked all the pumps, and all were in specification, and all were still in date for test.
Perhaps I should have used a measuring cylinder or some thing of a known exact volume before I cried wolf.
cheers
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Have you only just caught on this racket has been going on for years ??? ??? :cheers:
Read line 1 of my post.
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Did you take into consideration expansion and contraction? That's why you should fill up in the cool of the morning...
The temperature of the petrol stored in tanks underground remains relatively constant. A good friend used to manage a large fuel distributor hub and always said that this is only applicable to petrol stored in above ground tanks.
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Did you take into consideration expansion and contraction? That's why you should fill up in the cool of the morning...
You are correct re adjustment for temperature.
I used to work in an oil company terminal and was involved in stock keeping. Tank measurement, pipeline transfers, excise and import duties are all calculated (and paid) using complex tables which give the factors used to convert the volumes back to 15°C (previously 60°F).
While I do agree that there is advantage in filling in the morning - the difference is nothing like the 7 Litre in 20 Litre overcharge that I once experienced.
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A guage is not accurate. You would need to empty the tanks and fill up to know if you what you are suggesting is correct.
Weights and measures are normally pretty well on the mark. Agree with D4D.
Please read 3rd and 4th paragraph of my post - exactly what I posted.
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I was right peeved when I put 21 Litres of fuel in a motorcycle tank that was rated as 20L, so I notified Weights and Measures.
Slightly off topic, but relevant to plastic fuel containers.
Back in the days I was racing Enduro bikes we would 'expand' Acerbis or Safari tanks by filling with boiling water and applying compressed air to the tank vent. The vent was then locked off and the water allowed to cool overnight. Amazing how much more capacity the tanks then had. Even if only 1 litre more was gained - it could relate to 20 to 30 K's more range - a long way to push a motorcycle!
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Hey tuco,
My first job was stock reconciliation at pt stanvac refinery in Adelaide, hence my comment that my memory was getting hazy :D
Jim
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Read line 1 of my post.
I was referring to the supermarket part of your post, I should have said that.
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Please read 3rd and 4th paragraph of my post - exactly what I posted.
I was referring to the vehicle.
If you had a 20l container and it takes 27lts then obviously something is amiss. Why did you pay for 27 lts if your 20lt container only takes 20L?
Whats the story?
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I was referring to the vehicle.
If you had a 20l container and it takes 27lts then obviously something is amiss. Why did you pay for 27 lts if your 20lt container only takes 20L?
(And just for you antaganostic trollers - yes it was empty both times!!!!)
Whats the story?
Yeah............
I got 24 litres in my 20 litre container the other day.
When I questioned apu at the counter he told me the pumps were all calibrated.
I asked with what - cos they're $%^&# wrong.........
Refused to pay for 24 litres, offered to pay for the 20 happily as that's what I got.
He threatened to call the cops, so I told him to go for it. Not my fault the pumps gave the wrong reading.
He took my money for the 20 and grumbled that he was going to lose his job.
Not my problem.
Oddly enough, when I drove past the following morning there was a service van at the pumps.............
Next fill up, my 20 litre can only got 19.8 litres in it from the same pump.
Even stranger was that he still had his job..................
Now to the real pressing question.......
How am I going to sleep knowing that he doesn't like me anymore??? ;D ;D ;D
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Hey tuco,
My first job was stock reconciliation at pt stanvac refinery in Adelaide, hence my comment that my memory was getting hazy :D
Jim
My grey stuff is also a bit that way Jim - I was stock clerk at Total Australia (later taken over by Ampol) Whinstanes terminal (Brisbane) in the early 70's. Later took on similar position with Caltex at the Cairns terminal. Obviously deeply involved with pipeline transfers, inter company and ship to shore, and payment of Excise and Import duties.
Several instances of being short changed at the fuel pump prompted me starting this thread.
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Yeah............
I got 24 litres in my 20 litre container the other day.
When I questioned apu at the counter he told me the pumps were all calibrated.
I asked with what - cos they're $%^&# wrong.........
Refused to pay for 24 litres, offered to pay for the 20 happily as that's what I got.
He threatened to call the cops, so I told him to go for it. Not my fault the pumps gave the wrong reading.
He took my money for the 20 and grumbled that he was going to lose his job.
Not my problem.
Oddly enough, when I drove past the following morning there was a service van at the pumps.............
Next fill up, my 20 litre can only got 19.8 litres in it from the same pump.
Even stranger was that he still had his job..................
Now to the real pressing question.......
How am I going to sleep knowing that he doesn't like me anymore??? ;D ;D ;D
Thats the way to do it, when the cops arrive they could caution the servo for obtaining benifit by deception. ;D ;D ;D
There is no way I would pay for more than I KNEW was in there, is bloody expensive enough as it is. imagine a beer with only 300ml instead of 375ml ....there would be a riot ..LOL
And don't stress Brain ...we still like you :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Jet ;D
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My LPG tanks allow my to just squeeze in 70 litres at nearly every servo but at many Caltex (Woolies) ones I usually get up to 74 litres, so much for the discounts they offer, they get them back as soon as you use fuel. I avoid them now.
Trevor
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I find these threads interesting, as so much is based on anecdotal stories. My wife has managed a service station for the last 15 years and been in the industry for 28 years.
1. Employees of the companies do not tamper with the settings on the pumps
2. The pumps are calibrated on a random basis by a govt controlled body. This calibration is also done as a result of any customer complaint.
3. Out of all the pumps in Australia, and the number of fillups per day sometimes there will be inaccuracies. If you feel hard done by complain in the correct way and action will be taken.
4. My wife has never had a complaint that a customer got too much fuel for their money, even when tests have shown that the pumps were reading low.
5. The last customer that complained to my wife said the pump read 85 litres when his car only holds 70. He was only willing to pay for the 70, but when my wife offered to call the police to settle the dispute, paid for the 85 and left. Video footage showed him filling a jerry can before his car.
PS A plea for those who work at petrol stations - they do not set the price so do not abuse the console operator when fuel goes up!!
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I understand what you guys mean.
I filled up at a servo on my way to echuca from melbourne last weekend. I was on the empty line and was about to hit the reserve when a servo popped up so I filled up.
Now even saying that my tank (90L) was bone dry, and all my lines were dry, Maybe just MAYBE I might be able to squeeze say 93L in there.
When I finished filling up I had a look at the bowser and it said that I had put 108L in???!!!! WTF?
now even if im wrong and say the tank is actually 95L there is still a huge discrepancy, Considering it was a hi flow pump (yes I checked for spillage) and considering the trucks that go through there and the amount that they fill up. They must be having staff parties every week with the extra cash!
I will admit I got pretty angry when I saw how much was stated as going in my tank. my reserve was chockers full and I only have a 90L tank, plus there was still a little bit of fuel in there.
So I would be saying that there is around 15-23 litres that they tried to over charge me by. I went into the servo and before anyone said anything I asked to see the manager.
I tried to calmly say what I thought was wrong and he looked at me like I was an idiot. I said to him that I wasn't paying for 108L on principle and said that as I explained before I would pay for up to 95. He threatened to call the police and like others before me knowing I was in the right I asked him to do it quickly so that I could be on my way sooner rather than later.
After another 10 min of arguing I got my phone out to call the police as I was sick of going around in circles he decided that paying for 95L would be more than ok and was rather apologetic??
I have since filled up at a Independent caltex down the road from my house the other day and the gauge was lower than when I filled up at the other servo and I only took 85L. IUnderstand that gauges can vary and all that but this really does highlight the general consensus.
whatever happened to HONESTY people? surely there are set parameters that petrol stations must have the pumps checked?
ok rant over.
Cheers
Evo
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Years ago There was a old saying in the fuel industry up is to us and down is to them... if you wind the gears on the pump up the retailer wins if you wind the gears on the pump down the customer wins which way do you think they are wound??????
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PS A plea for those who work at petrol stations - they do not set the price so do not abuse the console operator when fuel goes up!!
I really couldn't agree more. Hence why I asked to speak to the manager.
I really don't think all service stations are out to rip people off, but surely if a question is asked the manager should at least investigate.
To be honest I don't think I have ever noticed getting more fuel than what I have paid for but it must have happened at some time.
As its allot easier to know just how much fuel can fit, if it goes over then you would notice, whereas if say you fill up on half a tank and it gives me a couple of extra litres I doubt I would even notice.
Like all mechanical things, items can break, get knocked, and need re setting. So an amount of common sense should be applied.
If the manager had been able to show me that I could have been wrong or what not I would have understood and accepted that. but it was too big a discrepancy to sweep under the carpet.
I think what I was most angry about was the managers attitude, I certainly wasn't rude to him. To be called a liar when its very easy to confirm what I was saying as truth then he shouldn't be in that position in my mind.
Cheers
Evo
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The error in the metering of the fuel should be minimal as the fuel is metered through a positive displacement meter.
This meter, at a base level, is a series of "cups" of a known volume that roate on a cam as the fuel passes. The number of roatations is what is actually counted.
The advantage to this type of instrumentation is that it is very acurate and (in theory) any error is the volume changing in the "cups" should benifit the consumer and not the retailer - another motovation for the retailer to ensure that calibration is in fact acurate.
Now i am not say that anythign cant be played with or broken - but the setup used is very robust and (when used and maintained as inended) very acurate. In the case of the 20L jerry can - have you done your own test to see how much it actually holds? - maybe measure the amount of fuel you can get out once full - buy a cheap large measuring cup?
And yes as everyone has said temperature does effect volume, however as someone else has said the temperature change of diesel stored underground does not have a dramatic effect on volume.
Welchy
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This is something that I have really never paid attention to.
Aside from the direct dollars lost by customers, this would also affect fuel economy figures (if the driver is recording these details) which in turn could lead to additional expenditure to try to "solve" a problem that does not exist.
So now I will drive LB crazy with recording volumes etc....
Bunyip
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Hey Buntip,
You can keep track of it all with, Fuelly (http://www.fuelly.com/dashboard/)
;D
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Having been around/worked petrol stations a bit in my life and the fact my brother still owns one today, we've seen it all.
When the "weights and measures" folks use to call in to check the pumps, if one was short changing customers, they would lock it straight away.
If it was short changing the service station, they just told you about it.
I guess i have to ask the question, if the pump was out of order the other way, say you filled an empty Jerry can you knew was dead empty and only 15 litres showing on the bowser, filled it to overfowing, would you offer to pay the extra and do the right thing or keep ya mouth shut.
Hmmm, i bet i know which one.... :D
Most would slip home, get another Jerry can and fill that too as well as the car, the wifes car, tell the neighbours that bowser 4 is in a very good mood today and keep ya mouth shut the whole time your paying for the fuel.
OF COURSE, I'M NOT SAYING ANYONE ON HERE WOULD DO THAT, i'm just saying, most folks have very double stanards when it comes to being shortchanged.
We once had a bloke not want to pay for fuel for whatever reason, so we offered to drain the fuel out again.When told, it might take an hour or so, he paid up.
If someone tried to not pay for the bowser amount, the console operator would have to call the cops. He or she, can only act on what the bowser tells them.
In my opinion, you need to pay for what the amount is the bowser has shown, but tell the operator, you will take it up with management at your first chance.
Take down all details, names, times etc and do it correctly.
If ya don't want to do it that way, then just cop it on the chin.
Its no different to when i get booked for speeding, which is pretty often. I try to cop it on the chin, as the number of times i've gotten away with not getting booked, far outweighs the times i did.
Another good example, is a mate use to work for Top Taste and the trouble they went to so that cakes made the correct weight.
If they passed a set point a tad under weight, the creamer or jammer would be adjusted for aa extra big squirt to get it over the minimum weight and they often fell into the 1 - 5% over the correct weight and no customers complained, but geez, have it come out under weight, they would have to scrap 'ém if any were left over once the staff got into them.
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Thanks Hairs,
I will look at that, the issue I have is the dual fuel and having to record odometer readings whenever you change fuel types. We tried this on our last camping trip but forgot to do it after the second or third day.
Bunyip
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Hey Bunyip,
I think the only way to use Fuelly with two fuel types is to setup a second vehicle with either gas or ULP.
Yeah, I know apita ???
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I agree with Hewy54 'ps' comment. Nice andfriendly and calm.
Although, on my calculations, it doesn't matter where I fuel up, they are all thieving. Cost per litre of fuel is outrageous. Doesn't matter where you shop,they're all the same. Bloody over priced necessity.!!
Anyway, some interesting replies. Also a few informative ones.
To settle a score,like if an ATM dispense more cash than i ask for, one mistake is acceptable. If it short changes me,a second mistake is unacceptable.
Likewise,if a bowser was under charging, one mistake can be accepted. If it starts short changing, a second mistake is not! !!
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I think if you know your right then stick to your guns , you are not stealing ... If the machine says I put 90ltrs and my tank is incapable of holding 90ltrs. then I don't care if you call Ghost Busters I anint paying for it.
Cops turn up to settle the dispute ... wheres the offence ?? if I am offering to pay for the 75ltrs which my tank can hold at maxium fill as per manufactures specification.
Imagine the court case when you produce the data sheet from the maunufacturer of the car to the judge , so the servo will be claiming that thier pump is correct and that toyota/Mitsi are wrong... and given that fuel capicities are factored into the euro 4 emissions standards the repercussions of a veh manufacturer understating the capicity of the tank would be huge. Thus why we all can never actually fit the stated amount into our tanks as per the owners manual. cause just like Top Taste ..toyota would rather overstate the capacity then be caught understating it.
Jet ;D ;D
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I accept that this, like most threads, bears ill towards few who are dishonest, but tarnishes those who are not......
SORRY.
I've said it, I mean it and I'll stick to it.
If you are an honest servo, be it staff member, owner, manager or anything else, best wishes to you.
If you are a thief, then may Gillard reign upon you!
I can accept errors and margins as there is in most things.
BUT I cannot accept paying for 24 litres when only getting 20.
Imagine if I was sticking my usual 100-110 litres in the patrol.....................
Too right, I would tell them if they gave me 110 for the price of 80, but when does that happen? I'm honest. Ok I know I'm wierd and strange and all the other stuff, but I am honest.
And yes I do complain when I get short changed. Why shouldn't I?
Years ago, at the same station, the same (person who I refuse to accept is actually born of this planet!!!!) attendant swiped my motorcharge card, I signed and started to walk out.
Before I reached the door I realise that instead of charging my $87.00 for the diesel, he had charged me $8,700.00.
I patiently re waited my turn and then showed him.
He politely informed me there was nothing he could do and I had to take it up with motorcharge.
Now these local inept beings have a bit of a reputation in our area and I asked again to sort it out.
He told me he couldn't and asked me to leave.
Of course I refused and started to argue with him.
After a while I was upsetting the other customers and getting nowhere.
I then asked him to call the police.
He wouldn't and kept asking me to leave.
I then started getting agro and threatened him with some minor rearrangement of body parts if he didn't either credit the money or call the cops.
Eventually he called the cops who obviously had better things to do and had the Shits with both of us.
They told me just to take it up with motorcharge and get lost.
I refused as he had a docket with my signature on it for that amount.
Ie I signed and agreed to pay for it on a legal docket.
Forget it, I wasn't leaving.
After being read the riot act, and threatened with an arrest, I decided it best to leave.............
I then proceeded outside under police escort and asked if they would like their ford ranger filled with diesel?
Since I had paid for $8700.00 worth I was going to take it.
I'd give it to every motorist who came in and any I could't get rid of, I'd come back to get later, perhaps over the next 6 months, 3 times a week, till I'd got it all.
Oh and by the way, when you get called back here, I'll show you my receipt to prove I'd allready paid for it............
Obviously constable plod was not happy, but could now see my point and went back in to apu to see what could be done.
Lo and behold, my card was represented and the full $8700 was credited back to the card.
When I got the receipt apu asked me for the card back so he could charge the correct amount.
I looked and plod, looked at apu and told them to arrest me for stealing. They owed me $87.00 for my time.
Plod suggested apu just cop this one for not doing the right thing in the first place :cup:
Hence why I don't give a rats posterior if he doesn't like me.
Only real problem is I have no other local to go to, as the one down the road is out of my way and on the wrong side of the road.
I'll just have to stick to this until someone either stuffs him in a blender, or he sells out.....
Just to drag this saga on a bit................
I've filled up at servos all over the country and more than 99 percent are pleasant helpful friendly people.
I also accept that some of those that aren't have been driven to the point by inconsiderate motorist, BUT I didn't do it, so why should I be punished?
Treat me as I treat you.
Cheers and I shall now quietly fall of the side of my soapbox................ :-* :-* :-*
Brian
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I guess i have to ask the question, if the pump was out of order the other way, say you filled an empty Jerry can you knew was dead empty and only 15 litres showing on the bowser, filled it to overfowing, would you offer to pay the extra and do the right thing or keep ya mouth shut.
Hmmm, i bet i know which one.... :D
Most would slip home, get another Jerry can and fill that too as well as the car, the wifes car, tell the neighbours that bowser 4 is in a very good mood today and keep ya mouth shut the whole time your paying for the fuel.
OF COURSE, I'M NOT SAYING ANYONE ON HERE WOULD DO THAT, i'm just saying, most folks have very double stanards when it comes to being shortchanged.
Hardly a fair call....... 'cause the bowser being out in our favour WOULDN'T HAPPEN!!!!
Chris.
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No wonder myfuel economy is as bad as it is on my old Ute.
I'm paying for more fuel than actually putting in the tank, may my old Banger isnt as bad as I think it is...
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I find it hard to believe anyone thinks a jerry can to expand enough to hold 27 ltrs. no matter what the temp inside, outside or upside down.
and as for having to pay for the 27ltrs that you KNOW you didnt get, I'd have told them to take it back.
Ring this place
http://www.ssa.org.au/contact_us/index.php (http://www.ssa.org.au/contact_us/index.php)