MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bird on November 25, 2011, 11:49:59 AM
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/rant
Another burnoff gone toes up... And been burning since September?
(http://images.watoday.com.au/2011/11/25/2796935/Gallery_9-600x400.jpg)
Talking with dad last night to also spent 25yrs as RFS, back in the 60-80's before technology, modern trucks, permits, rules and planning, burnoffs we did never seemed to get away.. now so many do. specially in Victoria.
Today - another 30 homes and chalets, five sheds and two other buildings gone. + so much more that people will never get back... Having seen people go thru this in fires personally, words cant describe how shattering/destroying this can be to people. Fuq the money, thats not what many people are worried about... Their lives go up in smoke.
We need hazard reductions, theres no questioning that.. but something needs to change in how they are done.
We had one burn off blocked by the ... green people, due to some rare frog. ~9-12mths later fire went thru there, took out Mr Frog and everything on the ground, + dozen houses and life.
But they will have an "investigation" into it.... and then snafu.
The one good thing is to see other people in the region gettin behind those who have lost everything, and those that cannot get back home yet, and dont know if they have a home to go to..
Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/dozens-sought-refuge-while-their-township-burned-20111125-1nxoq.html#ixzz1eg3N3CYf (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/dozens-sought-refuge-while-their-township-burned-20111125-1nxoq.html#ixzz1eg3N3CYf)
(http://images.watoday.com.au/2011/11/25/2796432/Defcon_Beach-620x0.jpg)
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having grown up in the general area and still having many friends down that way my heart goes out to all that are suffering and my thanks goes to those that are fighting the flames
such a needless tragic waste
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Margaret River is 45 Km from Busselton, the smoke is in the air, it can be smelt and seen, I think there is no way to stop the fire unless we get rain and that is not predicted because the fire front is reported as being 20 Km wide >:(
It will be affecting so many people, businesses and then there is the livestock
Many affected locals have been put up here in Busso.
Then there is the Skoolies, well they will be here or at Dunsborough >:D
Must be about time to go to Perth to have some peace an quiet
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This
is
worth
a
second
post
it's RAINING :cup:
Bugga, didn't last too long, all humid now
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Our farm was just east of Perth and we did our burns around this time every couple of years in conjunction with DEC or CALM as it was known then. We never had an out of control fire through our area in the 30 years there. I recall that DEC were always concious of the prevailing conditions and I know they had a few uncontrolled outbreaks during the burn offs but fortunately nothing drastic happened. None of the affected people we knew ever complained about it as they understood the potential consequences if nothing was done.
It is a tragic outcome down there but imagine if that fire happened in January on a 40 degree day during school holidays.
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/rant
We need hazard reductions, theres no questioning that.. but something needs to change in how they are done.
Hazard reduction what's that??
Been in the RFS for 17 years, the last hazard reduction we did was about 10 years ago our drip torches wouldn't know what has hit them if we tried to use them now!
Just lucky its raining here the only saving grace at the moment.
Too much paperwork and politics just to strike a match so they dont bother round here plus the window of opportunity is only about 6-8 weeks each year so not much time at all.
Usually they wait till the mushroom cloud goes up in these parts and deal with it then rather than trying to prevent or minimise the impact before it happens.
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Too much paperwork and politics just to strike a match so they dont bother round here plus the window of opportunity is only about 6-8 weeks each year so not much time at all.
Bingo.. thats how it became when I pulled the pin.
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The total F - wit clowns at the DEC were burning off with a forecast of 37 degrees and winds of about 70 kmh. THAT is why it takes so much paperwork to burn off in smart states because freaking idiotic morons reckon they can overcome the forces of nature in W.A.
I reckon they should be charged with criminal negligence.
POD's 2cents.
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The total F - wit clowns at the DEC were burning off with a forecast of 37 degrees and winds of about 70 kmh. THAT is why it takes so much paperwork to burn off in smart states because freaking idiotic morons reckon they can overcome the forces of nature in W.A.
I reckon they should be charged with criminal negligence.
POD's 2cents.
x2
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The total F - wit clowns at the DEC were burning off with a forecast of 37 degrees and winds of about 70 kph.
THAT is why it takes so much paperwork to burn off in smart states because freaking idiotic morons reckon they can overcome the forces of nature in W.A.
I reckon they should be charged with criminal negligence.
POD's 2cents.
Lets get factual >:(
The burn-off was started many weeks ago in cool weather - not when it was 37° or gusting winds either
it has just flared up uncontrollably recently, remember it has a 20 Km firefront now so it's difficult to manage.
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From what Ive read, it would appear that the burn they lit recently was a last ditch attempt to hold in the long term burn that was still running about within its burnt perimeter. Is this a correct reading of the situation?
If so, looks like they were in between the proverbial rock/hard place.
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From what Ive read, it would appear that the burn they lit recently was a last ditch attempt to hold in the long term burn that was still running about within its burnt perimeter. Is this a correct reading of the situation?
Can I ask where it is you read it??
as I'm a 'local' and am being advised by the local Shire ???
(not saying they, or you, are incorrect) :cheers:
Just seeking answers
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Should have said seen not read.
ABC over here last night had a DEC spokesperson talking about the situation that had evolved during the past few weeks.
He said that there was a large area of unburnt material within the pre existing fire and that they were concerned about it "going for a run" (not exact words, but similar) and breaking control lines.
Having been in a similar situation (wildfire planning unit), I put two and two together and came to the conclusion that the re-light on Wednesday was an attempt to thicken control lines.
That is probably the most usual reason for escapes IMO and experience - lighting control burns in less than suitable conditions, when you really dont want to, but need to try something.
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Lets get factual >:(
The burn-off was started many weeks ago in cool weather - not when it was 37° or gusting winds either
September from what i read on one news feed.
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No controlled burn lasts 3 months, what did they do, light the whole state up and this is the only unburnt bit of ground.
Someone needs their ass kicked if a controlled burn can fester for nearly 3 months and then go ape Shit like it has.
Same as the bright dimwits that allowed a controlled burn on Fraser Island to be lit 1 week before school holidays and then it gets out of control because the forcast 30-40km/h winds arrived as forecast.
This is the 2nd time in 2 years Fraser has had out of control hazard reductions.
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Is it true if you want to knock down a tree on your own property in that region you need to apply for a permit / permission ?
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http://www.theage.com.au/national/official-linked-to-two-wa-disasters-20111125-1nzkg.html (http://www.theage.com.au/national/official-linked-to-two-wa-disasters-20111125-1nzkg.html)
An official labelled as incompetent over the 2007 fire deaths of three truck drivers near Coolgardie approved the prescribed burn that resulted in the devastating Margaret River fire.
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Is it true if you want to knock down a tree on your own property in that region you need to apply for a permit / permission ?
YES, and you can't knockdown a tree that the local possums live in either, they have more rights here than people >:D
They wanted to extend the local hospital, the plans had to be modified because they would disturb the possums
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An official labelled as incompetent over the 2007 fire deaths of three truck drivers near Coolgardie approved the prescribed burn that resulted in the devastating Margaret River fire.
Having been involved with a coronial inquest into the death of fire fighters in Sydney in the 80's, my thoughts on a coronors inquest are they are nothing but we must find someone to point the finger and and blame, more than much else.
4 different QC's (?)asking this bloke the same questions all day for 3 straight days but asking them worded slightly differently hoping to hell for him to answer just one of them differently, then they flogged him over that for hours. they had to have breaks every hour or so as the bloke couldnt take it, he was in tears... This was the 2IC in the shire at the time... As it was in the end, he had nothing to answer for.
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Its never a good time of yr fo this sort of Shit to happen, but this is Christmas..
Anyone know of donation centers or places to donate kids toys and clothes yet? We cleaned out the kids rooms week or so ago, have a ton of stuff to give em, and bed n dressers etc.
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Anyone know of donation centers or places to donate kids toys and clothes yet? We cleaned out the kids rooms week or so ago, have a ton of stuff to give em, and bed n dressers etc.
Nice thought :cup:
I believe the local Lions and Rotary Clubs here in Busselton are the drop off point and have the distribution job
( I will find out and post it up here )
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What was on the news up here was that there was still one hot spot and when the winds came the the embers started this new fire. We were told they all thought the original burn was out and had all but packed up and gone home.
like others this is just what we heard.
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YES, and you can't knockdown a tree that the local possums live in either, they have more rights here than people >:D
They wanted to extend the local hospital, the plans had to be modified because they would disturb the possums
So what hope have they if they can not knock down a few trees for preventative fire hazard around their property ?
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http://www.theage.com.au/national/official-linked-to-two-wa-disasters-20111125-1nzkg.html (http://www.theage.com.au/national/official-linked-to-two-wa-disasters-20111125-1nzkg.html)
An official labelled as incompetent over the 2007 fire deaths of three truck drivers near Coolgardie approved the prescribed burn that resulted in the devastating Margaret River fire.
If these guys had to respond to a house fire, they'd start with a backburn in your kitchen
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You don't cut trees down to protect your home. Trees stop / restrict ember attack which is the major cause of houses catching. Trees also slow wind speed.
You need to create a fuel buffer zone around the property and then a modified fuel zone further out. None of this involves trees. Shrubs and small stuff are fine. Some lower limbs as well.
That's the latest fire hazard advice anyway.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What was on the news up here was that there was still one hot spot and when the winds came the the embers started this new fire..
when i was involved with training in RFS, they had evidence of embers going around 150-200klms and causing spots.. they are a nightmare, we have been caught out by them before, its pants soiling stuff.
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You don't cut trees down to protect your home. Trees stop / restrict ember attack which is the major cause of houses catching. Trees also slow wind speed.
You need to create a fuel buffer zone around the property and then a modified fuel zone further out. None of this involves trees. Shrubs and small stuff are fine. Some lower limbs as well.
That's the latest fire hazard advice anyway.
WTF ??? ;D
My idea of a buffer zone is to use a large yellow machine with tracks to make one.......
Rather than us stupid bastards in red trucks risking our backsides trying protect something that is near impossible to save because these days people have seek permission to reduce the fuel load on their own land.
We have got too good at putting fires out rather than utilising fire to regenerate the bush in a controlled manner all whilst protecting our native fauna and flora, these fires reduce the risk of wildfires which just anilate everything in their path.
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My idea of a buffer zone is to use a large yellow machine with tracks to make one.......
That's the latest fire hazard advice anyway.
just have a healthy bank balance, you may need it... the greens have more clout than you ever willl.
2002, Liam Sheahan, a resident of Reedy Creek in Victoria, was prosecuted for disregarding local laws and bulldozing approximately 250 trees on his own property to make a fire break next to his home.
Council laws prohibited Mr. Sheahan from clearing trees further than six meters away from his house, but he went ahead with his decision to create a 100 meter fire break. During the resulting prosecution, bushfire expert Dr. Kevin Tolhurst testified on Mr. Sheahan's behalf, telling the court that the clearing had reduced the fire risk to Mr. Sheahan's home from extreme to moderate.
According to Mr. Sheahan, "The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247."
Mr. Sheahan's prosecution cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees, but when the bushfires swept through his town in February 2009, his actions were vindicated — his home was the only property left standing in a two-kilometer area, while neighboring properties were destroyed. His disregard for environmental laws saved his home and the lives of his family.
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just have a healthy bank balance, you may need it... the greens have more clout than you ever willl.
2002, Liam Sheahan, a resident of Reedy Creek in Victoria, was prosecuted for disregarding local laws and bulldozing approximately 250 trees on his own property to make a fire break next to his home.
Council laws prohibited Mr. Sheahan from clearing trees further than six meters away from his house, but he went ahead with his decision to create a 100 meter fire break. During the resulting prosecution, bushfire expert Dr. Kevin Tolhurst testified on Mr. Sheahan's behalf, telling the court that the clearing had reduced the fire risk to Mr. Sheahan's home from extreme to moderate.
According to Mr. Sheahan, "The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247."
Mr. Sheahan's prosecution cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees, but when the bushfires swept through his town in February 2009, his actions were vindicated — his home was the only property left standing in a two-kilometer area, while neighboring properties were destroyed. His disregard for environmental laws saved his home and the lives of his family.
Hey lost, you were too quick or i am slow I was just modifying my last post.
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just have a healthy bank balance, you may need it... the greens have more clout than you ever willl.
2002, Liam Sheahan, a resident of Reedy Creek in Victoria, was prosecuted for disregarding local laws and bulldozing approximately 250 trees on his own property to make a fire break next to his home.
Council laws prohibited Mr. Sheahan from clearing trees further than six meters away from his house, but he went ahead with his decision to create a 100 meter fire break. During the resulting prosecution, bushfire expert Dr. Kevin Tolhurst testified on Mr. Sheahan's behalf, telling the court that the clearing had reduced the fire risk to Mr. Sheahan's home from extreme to moderate.
According to Mr. Sheahan, "The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247."
Mr. Sheahan's prosecution cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees, but when the bushfires swept through his town in February 2009, his actions were vindicated — his home was the only property left standing in a two-kilometer area, while neighboring properties were destroyed. His disregard for environmental laws saved his home and the lives of his family.
Large price to pay for looking after your family and livelihood your damned if you do and your damned if you dont!!
I do remember hearing this and thinking the proof is in the pudding.
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Large price to pay for looking after your family and livelihood your damned if you do and your damned if you dont!!
x everything... cheap price to pay I reckon for saving your house, Shit and kids. the more power the greens get the worse it will get.
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x ....the more power the greens get the worse it will get
Yes, totally agree
in Busselton we have possums in various parks, they can't be taken from one tree and placed in another tree in the same park area, because possums are territorial and need their original 'home' so we can't cut down any 'peppy' tree in town.
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Yes, totally agree
in Busselton we have possums in various parks, they can't be taken from one tree and placed in another tree in the same park area, because possums are territorial and need their original 'home' so we can't cut down any 'peppy' tree in town.
cordless drill + roundup at 3am... the council will do it for you in the end
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Good idea Lost. Maybe that process works on Greenies as well? Mind you, you'd have to drill into a limb becos the head would be too bloody thick to penetrate.
Cheers, Tony
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Good idea Lost. Maybe that process works on Greenies as well? Mind you, you'd have to drill into a limb becos the head would be too bloody thick to penetrate.
Cheers, Tony
But once you got through the first layer it would be empty. ;D ;D
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WTF ??? ;D
My idea of a buffer zone is to use a large yellow machine with tracks to make one.......
Rather than us stupid bastards in red trucks risking our backsides trying protect something that is near impossible to save because these days people have seek permission to reduce the fuel load on their own land.
We have got too good at putting fires out rather than utilising fire to regenerate the bush in a controlled manner all whilst protecting our native fauna and flora, these fires reduce the risk of wildfires which just anilate everything in their path.
Trees are not fuel loading. Fuel loading is on the ground and shrubbery. Which is why the fire service conduct fuel hazard burns when its cool (at least they should be) so that the trees dont burn down but the ground fuel is reduced.
When you are in your red truck doing hazard burns are you pushing all the trees down?
Its not about being a greenie its current fire practice because it works. Trees slow down wind speed and stop ember attack. A correctly prepared property will survive better if the embers are reduced and trees help this.
Do some research.
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2002, Liam Sheahan, a resident of Reedy Creek in Victoria, was prosecuted for disregarding local laws and bulldozing approximately 250 trees on his own property to make a fire break next to his home.
Council laws prohibited Mr. Sheahan from clearing trees further than six meters away from his house, but he went ahead with his decision to create a 100 meter fire break. During the resulting prosecution, bushfire expert Dr. Kevin Tolhurst testified on Mr. Sheahan's behalf, telling the court that the clearing had reduced the fire risk to Mr. Sheahan's home from extreme to moderate.
According to Mr. Sheahan, "The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247."
Mr. Sheahan's prosecution cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees, but when the bushfires swept through his town in February 2009, his actions were vindicated — his home was the only property left standing in a two-kilometer area, while neighboring properties were destroyed. His disregard for environmental laws saved his home and the lives of his family.
[/quote]
Unfortunately the $100,000 wasn't returned!!!!
W.A. "DEC" - Department of Embers and Cinders????
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handy site
http://www.firebreak.com.au/house.html (http://www.firebreak.com.au/house.html)
Fuel Load
To measure fuel load measure a 1 metre by 1 metre square on the ground. Collect all the dead fuel that is thinner than a pencil and weigh it. Divide this weight by 100 and you have the fuel load in tonnes/hectare.
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Trees are not fuel loading. Fuel loading is on the ground and shrubbery. Which is why the fire service conduct fuel hazard burns when its cool (at least they should be) so that the trees dont burn down but the ground fuel is reduced.
When you are in your red truck doing hazard burns are you pushing all the trees down?
Its not about being a greenie its current fire practice because it works. Trees slow down wind speed and stop ember attack. A correctly prepared property will survive better if the embers are reduced and trees help this.
Do some research.
Trees contribute to the fuel loading by dropping their leaves and bark so yes they are part of the fuel loading which as you said also includes the grass on the ground and shrubbery or small trees.
In our big red truck no we don't push the trees down we have dozers to do that don't want to damage the bullbar ;D
The politics and paperwork to get a hazard reduction across the line these days is ridiculous but everyone cries when people lose everything they own in a bushfire it's nearly 2012 and we are still seeing this happen :'( >:(
Each year our window of opportunity is about 6-8 weeks depending on the rate at which the fuel is curing and the weather before it gets too hot and the hazard reduction becomes too great a risk for all involved.
Granted some trees may slow ember attack and I agree they can alter the wind speed but I certainly wouldn't risk my family or property by relying on a tree to stop a raging inferno.
Crown fires run through the tops trees it is one of the most awesome things I have experienced in my 17 years of service the noise and speed it made pushing through the trees was unbelievable something I will never forget, so my personal opinion here I wouldn't be to relying on trees to protect my house when considering we have eucalypts in a lot of places which put oils and vapours into the atmosphere which are flammable, nice pretty trees but great fuel!
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Trees contribute to the fuel loading by dropping their leaves and bark so yes they are part of the fuel loading which as you said also includes the grass on the ground and shrubbery or small trees.
we only ever included the ground fuel as that is what burns at that point in time. Your after the fuel load on the ground, not what might be there in a week.
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2002, Liam Sheahan, a resident of Reedy Creek in Victoria, was prosecuted for disregarding local laws and bulldozing approximately 250 trees on his own property to make a fire break next to his home.
Council laws prohibited Mr. Sheahan from clearing trees further than six meters away from his house, but he went ahead with his decision to create a 100 meter fire break. During the resulting prosecution, bushfire expert Dr. Kevin Tolhurst testified on Mr. Sheahan's behalf, telling the court that the clearing had reduced the fire risk to Mr. Sheahan's home from extreme to moderate.
According to Mr. Sheahan, "The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247."
Mr. Sheahan's prosecution cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees, but when the bushfires swept through his town in February 2009, his actions were vindicated — his home was the only property left standing in a two-kilometer area, while neighboring properties were destroyed. His disregard for environmental laws saved his home and the lives of his family.
Unfortunately the $100,000 wasn't returned!!!!
W.A. "DEC" - Department of Embers and Cinders????
'only cleared 247' and 100m wide firebreak. Lets all go and clear 100m wide fire breaks hey...what a fantastic landscape that would be. 8)
Deserved every cent he was fined. Of course his house will be safe - stuff the environment that we all need to live in. What a joke. No fire service or council in australia would think it reasonable to do this. And keep in mind the council told him he couldn't so bad bloody luck.
He could have prepared his house fine without this type of stupidity.
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http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/bushfire-threats-continue-in-southwest-20111201-1o972.html (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/bushfire-threats-continue-in-southwest-20111201-1o972.html)
Another burn runs away from the control lines.
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yeah. sorry, U you wernt there to make the decisions at the time.
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yeah. sorry, U you wernt there to make the decisions at the time.
apology accepted
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No worries pal.
hang on, sory, im apologising!! wtf.
:cheers:
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If these guys had to respond to a house fire, they'd start with a backburn in your kitchen
I don't think the DEC respond to house fires...hope not anyway!
Aren't they the same as NSW's NPWS (Sparks & Wild Fires)?
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wtf is going on in SW WA....i hear Gelorup (just south of Bunbury) is now burning?
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wtf is going on in SW WA....i hear Gelorup (just south of Bunbury) is now burning?
:'(
Gelorup residents had been warned to abandon or be prepared to actively defend their homes this morning, but the message has since been downgraded to a bushfire advice notice.
FESA warned that although the fire was contained, it was not under control and residents needed to stay alert for changing conditions.
About 40 career and volunteer firefighters were at the scene.
The latest warning came less than 24 hours after Molloy Island and East Augusta residents were allowed to return home after a big bushfire still raging between Nannup and Augusta threatened more than 100 homes.
FESA incident control officer John Tillman told a packed community meeting in Augusta on Saturday that the Nannup fire had been contained at Milyeannup Coast Road, about 20km east of Molloy Island and East Augusta.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/12237048/south-west-residents-urged-to-stay-alert/ (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/12237048/south-west-residents-urged-to-stay-alert/)
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Gee this sounds very bad... Be safe people.
About 150 firefighters are still battling a devastating blaze in the Perth hills that's destroyed at least 27 homes and has also been linked to a man's death.
St John crews weren't able to access the roof where the man collapsed after trying to save his house in Hovea on Sunday afternoon, despite assistance from the Department of Fire and Emergency Services, and he died at the scene.
The DFES said a bushfire WATCH AND ACT was now in place for people in the eastern part of Parkerville, Stoneville, and Mount Helena, as well as the western part of Gidgegannup and Chidlow in Mundaring Shire, and the city of Swan.
"The alert level for this fire has been downgraded," DFES said in a statement.
"There is a possible threat to lives and homes as a fire is in the area and conditions are changing.
"There are no changes since the previous alert."
The DFES said 27 homes had been confirmed lost due to the fire, adding that "this number is expected to increase as damage assessments continue".
At least two firefighters on Sunday had to be treated for heat exhaustion after battling the fire's flames, which were said to be up to 20 metres high.
On Monday morning, a DFES spokeswoman said about 150 firefighters were battling the blaze that has burnt through about 350 hectares of bush.
She said favourable weather forecast for Monday would hopefully allow firefighters to get the upper hand on the fire.
She said it wouldn't be clear how many homes had been destroyed until the sun came up.
A community meeting will be held at 10am today at Brown Park in Swan View on the corner of Amherst Road and Salisbury Road.
Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/150-firefighters-battle-perth-hills-blaze-20140113-30pel.html#ixzz2qEUtqG6j (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/150-firefighters-battle-perth-hills-blaze-20140113-30pel.html#ixzz2qEUtqG6j)
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latest count is 44 homes. Take care everyone, be prepared.
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An aerial picture of yesterdays Mundaring hills fire and two pics I took from our back yard of the smoke over Mundaring township - some good news today for one of our family members - her house was saved by one of the water bombers - but others in her street weren't so lucky - god bless all fire fighters they are the real heroes of this world