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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: GLC on October 19, 2011, 11:06:35 AM
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Apparently 90% of people dont know how to treat a burn????
University of NSW surveyed 7000 people and only 10% knew the full treatment.
Thankfully 80% knew to cool with water, but most did not know to keep the burn cool by continuing the flow of water for 20 minutes, or to remove clothing not attached to the skin from the burn site.
My guess is that a fair amount of the people who were surveyed were people who had elected to "save time" by completing a 1 day course rather than looking at the amount of subjects within a first aid course and realising the simple maths that it takes longer than 5 minutes to cover a topic properly.
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I agree, plenty of people don't treat me properly ;D
On a serious note though this is something everyone should make sure they have knowledge on. My wife recently dropped a cup of black tea in her lap and it ended up with her spending the night in the Burns *Ambos and nurses had great fun with her surname) Unit at RPH, who would have though a cup of tea could cause such damage, I certainly would not have believed it if I had not have seen it.
The scariest thing to me that came out of this is how a small child's skin would react to the same heat. Our passtime puts us in a high risk category for burns, especially in children. Diligence is the best form of prevention but make sure you do know what to do just in case. Interestingly the QLD Parks and Wildlife list burns to children as one of the reasons they have removed fire pits from many national parks - nanny state at it's best there!!
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Good point.
Treatment of burns can be summarised as "Cool & Cover".
The deeper the burn, the longer you need to cool it.
The other half of the deal is to cover the burn with a sterile (or clean) non-adherent dressing.
Worth remembering; after you discard the first layer on the roll, Glad Wrap is sterile and makes an ideal burns dressing for larger areas.
By the way, a Level 1 First Aid course HLTFA201A (which would normally be taught in one day) includes treatment of burns.
Dr Greg.
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Sort of on the same tact, but what I find interesting is that people with First Aid Certs are not kept up to date with changes in methods. My club ran a Level 2 + more course recently and there was so much that had changed since the last course, most left confused.
lots of ... no we dont do it that way anymore...
They have everyones info thats registered, why not send updates to their registered people every 3-6mths.... Email would do if snail mail is too expensive.
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Used to be 10 minutes of running water...that's inflation for you.
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"people with First Aid Certs are not kept up to date with changes in methods."
Good point. Couple of issues tho.
There have been many changes in First Aid Practises over the past few years. We have over 60 First Aiders in our workplace. I told them all that if your Qualification is an old "First Aid Level 2", then you need to retrain, as the cirruculum for that course is over three years old (out of date).
The new "Apply first Aid" (what would have been delivered at your training Course, lost) has to be also supplemented by Defib Training and Anaphylaxis, Asthma & Epilepsy courses to be fully operational.
Although no one (to my knowledge) has ever been legally held accountable for delivering "out of date" best practice first aid assistance, I wouldnt want to be the one who was.
The bottom line: deliver any assistance you can within your limits of competency. Seek assistance when needed.
The second issue is the update/renewal trigger. Training organisations (such as my employer) do have records of who did what, when, but it is up to the individual (in the absence of any centralised register) to ensure their competencies are up to date. Medical Staff, nurses, etc, are required to do this as part of their vocaional competencies on a regular basis. If you arnt employed in the industry (or have an industry role, such as a workplace first aid officer) the importance of renewing quals isnt as great. Its not the training organisations role to ensure follow up training. Not sure what the answer is.
Hopefully, people from the general public will keep putting their hand up for such training, as its a tremendous skill to have.
Cheers all,
Al.
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"I told them all that if your Qualification is an old "First Aid Level 2", then you need to retrain, as the cirruculum for that course is over three years old (out of date).
Apply First Aid is still often referred to as "Level 2" even if not technically correct. Some might have done Apply First Aid courses recently and the course would be up to date, even if the instructor referred to it as "Level 2".
Changes tend to be evolutionary rather than 180 degrees but its still worth doing a course every three years or so. (CPR needs to be every 12 months to keep your skills up.) Most of the changes tend to be towards making things simpler and easier to remember.
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"Changes tend to be evolutionary rather than 180 degrees but its still worth doing a course every three years or so. (CPR needs to be every 12 months to keep your skills up.) Most of the changes tend to be towards making things simpler and easier to remember."
Yeah, partly agree.
Our Workplace stance is that if the curriculum changes, we build the update into the annual CPR course.
The main issue (as lost has identified) is the number of people who let their skills competencies lapse by 5 - 10 years. Unfortunately, Training organisations arnt going to send out free updates, we,re now in the business of making money, not community service.
cheers.
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As Patr8ol stated, Glad Wrap is a very good "temporary" sterile burns dressing and is now standard on all Victorian Ambulances for that purpose, it is also carried by 99% of campers.
As long as it is applied ALONG the limb or burnt area and not wrapped around the burnt area, as this allows for swelling (which will happen). Once applied you can still cool the area with water over the Glad Wrap.
Very good basic first aid
cheers rastus
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We send out reminders every 12 months on cpr as it is the situation that changes most often. The 10 minutes was never to my knowledge part of the standards as I can remember the 20 from first aid courses in the 70's and 80's. The reason we dont go over the 20 minutes is that we need to ensure that we dont over cool the area, if the burn is so serious that it will need recooling of the area then it is more important that the person is in medical care and not ours:)
I agree that it is important for people to be kept up to date on changes and where a major change occurs our students are notified where possible, but the 12 month rule is normally sufficient, when you do a CPR update our trainers run through any other changes.
As for the legal on a person who hadnt updated. in Morrabbin Melbourne, a person took a fall avoiding a forklift, the first aider with an expired cert did what he could and said the person was ok to continue, 2 hours later the person collapsed and an ambulance was called, the person died from bleeding within the cranium, the first aider was not charged however the management and company received fines in excess of 200,000. the reason why the first aider was not charged is the good samaritans act introduced to Victoria in the mid 2000's. The first aider did all he could remember to do, it was the boss that had the responsibility to ensure the first aider was properly trained.
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amaso I disagree, first aid is a community service, every dollar we make above cost goes back into the community via discounted kits for community groups. I might not get rich from looking after the community but I will sure as hell be able to offer a proper course when we dont worry about the profitability of those courses. Perhaps why we still do run a 2 day course instead of those sub standard 1 day courses.
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From my memory of that incident, the first aider provided what assistance he could and the staff member then refused further treatment or ambulance assistance becasue he felt ok.
The Business owner became liable because he failed to dake due care of his worker - ie, call the ambulance or ensure he received medical treatment.
Its a minefield out there. ! !
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Amaso I dont recall any mention of the refusal in the court paperwork but you may be right. either way the court documents were very clear that it was because the first aid from a current certificate holder was absent. the certificate had expired by some length as well, so it couldnt be argued as an over sight
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"amaso I disagree, first aid is a community service, every dollar we make above cost goes back into the community via discounted kits for community groups. I might not get rich from looking after the community but I will sure as hell be able to offer a proper course when we dont worry about the profitability of those courses. Perhaps why we still do run a 2 day course instead of those sub standard 1 day courses."
Dont get me wrong - Im talking tounge in cheek here. first Aid provision is definetely a community service, just that all training provision isnt!
Difference is not for profit vs fully fee recoverable training providers.
Agree that Apply First Aid should be prefered over Basic Life Support.
Good to see the thread has got some followers.
cheers.
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hopefully means that people care about learning a little about first aid:) considering we have a Quack, an ambo and a couple of trainers perhaps a questions and answers page might not be too bad, that way we can keep people updated?
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Sounds a great idea.
I actually do WHS (for a large training provider), but keeping first aider currency for staff is a big task of my role.
Its an undervalued skill - not shure if it is, but should be fully tax deductible for any member of the general public who has
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must admit just got an update through and I cant help feeling a little cynical, NSW University conducts survey about burns, Adelaide University just rewarded a $429231 grant to look into burn management???? hmmmm where did that metal colander go? The voices:)
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unfortunately only tax deductible where it is work related, first aid kits can be written off against some health insurers but not sure on first aid training, we dont even get subsidised unless we enrol them into a full course and then just let them do the first aid component and drop out, which we dont do by the way, know a few who do though. Probably why I am always looking at ways to subsidise individuals out of my own pocket.
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Hi, Quack here. (and a first aid trainer, private first aid medic and with a fair bit of forensic experience too).
Is seems like the First Aider who did the best they could, within the knowledge that they had, couldn't be criticised, although if they were the designated first aid officer that would be a different matter as they should have maintained currency.
As far as paying for community services is concerned, that is an interesting issue. The largest first aid provider and training organisation is largely staffed by volunteers. Unfortunately they are falling behind the private organisations who have become more professional and more reliable. The company I work for providing first aid services gets a lot of new clients who have found the black & white mob unreliable.
Clean water is a community expectation, but we still pay for plumbers.
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I did my Senior First Aid certificate and let me tell you, as a recipient of a serious burn to my shin, after jumping thru a wall of flame (burning fibreglass), and watching my 40 foot catamaran and its 11 years of work gone in less than 30 minutes, I was so numb and "out of it" that it didn't occur to me or any rescuers to use cool water.
I spent 2 weeks in hospital having skin grafts to my leg.
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Hi Quack, got to be careful or I might start to call you that forgetting your pat8rol:)
The black and white mob are perhaps more highly financed by state and federal interests than any other group. They are also the favourites of the undereducated as to what a good training facility should represent. Unfortunately they have gone more and more after the dollar, what respect I had for them is starting to fade:( Stupid thing is I was one of them for about 20 years. Lots of great arguments with the white and red mob about the governments favouritism. These days I think it needs a bit of a shake up, it needs to really try and use the Millions they receive from the Government to start a campaign around first aid kits in every car and first aid training for every new driver.
Muso that is no good, losing the cat is terrible (bike rider here so know the pain of watching your creation crumble, the body pain comes later) the treatment for good first aid is drilled in until it is second nature for a lot of first aiders, pitty they didnt simply grab the garden hose and cool your leg down, would have done a world of good.
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I just completed my Active First Aid (Cert II) course today.
Yep 20 mins for burns .... cover and cool. We were left with the impression that all first aid to a refresher at 12 months, 24 months and the whole course again at 36 months. Works for me.
Just remember that First Aid means just that ... first assistance on site ... to stem bleeding, keep blood circulating, apply assisting measures really ... anything more technical wait for a professionally trained ambo or doctor to arrive. First Aiders are NOT trained professionals but ARE trained in the VERY basics.
If it keeps you alive it can't be all bad.
Kit_e
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It also helps to know what catergory of burn it is, for example 1st Degree, plus the % of burn.
Yes but generally, cool and cover...but and there is but
When the skin starts to come away from the body and epidermus is exposed....cool and very loose wet cover...not dry cover...wet / very damp.
Also for the minors up to cat 2...good old 100% Allo Vera gel, kept in the fridge or esky...works wonders.
Case in point...bloke at work, burnt his palm by putting it on a hot exhaust muffler, squeezed a heap of 100% pure Allo into a bag, shoved his hand in it, then tapped up the ending.
Doctors kept the bag on for 24hrs....palm / hand good, no blistering, no scarring.
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As Patr8ol stated, Glad Wrap is a very good "temporary" sterile burns dressing and is now standard on all Victorian Ambulances for that purpose, it is also carried by 99% of campers.
As long as it is applied ALONG the limb or burnt area and not wrapped around the burnt area, as this allows for swelling (which will happen). Once applied you can still cool the area with water over the Glad Wrap.
Well, it USED to be our primary burns dressing until we ditched it in favour of "Burn-Aid"
Comes in Face shape, big and small etc etc. Said to be the bee's Knees, but is now there is a small group of Dr's who dislike it. It draws heat out really well....sometimes too well, as it can cause Hypothermia in some cases. HOWEVER, we still carry Glad Wrap as a back up, for all these reasons mentioned earlier, and make it a great thing to know for us campers who may be some hours from more advanced assistance (in an ambulance or by plane :( ) . By covering the burnt area is prevents nerve ending contact with air (because it is normally covered by skin) which in turn reduced pain (it does seem to work in my experience) is sterile (as discussed) and can be cooled through. And as Rastus said I think, go DOWN the limb NEVER around to allow for the inevtiable swelling
GLC Said:"The reason we dont go over the 20 minutes is that we need to ensure that we dont over cool the area, if the burn is so serious that it will need recooling of the area then it is more important that the person is in medical care and not ours:)"
Very relevant point. Especially for those in remote locations. I've been to 1 pt who was having his burns enthusiastically cooled by bystanders with a garden hose!! Great for the burn, not great in the middle of a melbourne winter and the pt is hypothermic!! Cool the area, not the whole patient (unless the whole pt is burnt - which i hope no-one ever has to deal with!!)
From my memory of that incident, the first aider provided what assistance he could and the staff member then refused further treatment or ambulance assistance becasue he felt ok.
The Business owner became liable because he failed to dake due care of his worker - ie, call the ambulance or ensure he received medical treatment.
Yeah, but hang on - if the patient doesnt want an Ambulance, and was in a fit state to refuse said ambulance, how does the business owner get in the poo for that?? Perhaps he was fined for failing to keep a safe workplace (either due to the lack of forklift movement/pedestrian seperation or failing to have an appropriately trained first aider), but in the end, a person can decline an ambulance, and unless you think the person is unfit to refuse (confused, disoriented, severity of injury, effected by substances etc), all you are doing is wasting the Ambo's time if the person is just going to tell them to bugger off when they arrive!!! If the patient is making it plain they dont want an ambulance, there isn't much the ambos can do when they get there!! NOR can the business owner bundle the worker into their car and force them to go to a doctor or hospital, and force them to seek medical attention. Whilst it's sad the person in question died, but one of the benefits of being a human being is that you have the right to make decisions for yourself, and if someone relieves you of this right, that someone can be charged with assault and/or false imprisionment. Very extreme, but legally factual. You can offer, encourage, persuade and cojole, but you cant force, someone to seek medical attention.
I attended a case where a man had a fall at a shopping centre. He had no injuries, just stummbled and fell, but was being essentially held down by a security guard at a shopping centre so he didnt leave before we arrived. Security Guard is lucky to have a job and not an assualt conviction instead. Aforementioned Security Guard, when asked used the all too frequent "Its our policy that anyone who is injured is checked out by an ambulance" NO Worries, I'll send your employer the bill then shall I? Thats funny, I dont remember being their first aid provider. Ambulances are for sick/injured people, not there for large multinational companies to have a free first aid service to give them someone to try and throw their liability onto. If someone is injured, no worries. (there.... rant over!!)
Clearly common sense (and here is the flaw in my plan) would say that if the person had significant injuries then OF COURSE you should call, and please dont take this as a dont call an ambulance comment. Some people will ask you to call, some people wont be able to call for themselves, some people will need one called on their behalf ( mental health issues as a primary example), and some people wont need you to call or may ask you not to call. But remember, that if you do call, and the situation changes, and the person says "Nah mate, i'm all good and I'm leaving" then you can call back and cancel!! So many people get us confused with Fire Trucks (who in Victoria ALWAYS keep going once called :/ ), because trust me, there is always another job waiting if YOU dont need us......sad but true.
As a Paramedic Educator and (Civilian) First aid Trainer, if someone has a question, I'd be happy to try and answer as best as possible, if someone has a burning (no pun intended) question.
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For those who often camp bush hours away from medical care or dont have an extensive 1st aid kit with burn aid etc ... try this.
Most of us campers enjoy eggs so will have some handy.
Initial first aid consists running cold water on the affected area until the heat is reduced and stops burning the layers of skin.
Then, spread egg whites on the affected area.
Separated 2 egg white from the yolks, beat them slightly & apply to burn area the whites when dried and formed a protective layer.
Egg white is a natural collagen and if continued during at least one hour to apply layer upon layer of beaten egg white.
Pain can be redused or even in some cases no longer felt and by the next days have limited a trace of the burn.
The burned area regenerates thanks to the collagen in the egg whites, a placenta full of vitamins.
This information could be helpful to everyone: Please pass it on.
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For those who are concerned about the legal side of offering first aid assistance (trained or untrained), google up the "Wrongs Act 1958" it's all there for you to read.
You can't be sued......
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Sorry, I could not resist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCYkBEzkqnQ
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For those who are concerned about the legal side of offering first aid assistance (trained or untrained), google up the "Wrongs Act 1958" it's all there for you to read.
You can't be sued......
Provided you dont do anything you aren't trained or have experience in doing..... Example: i'm sure most people here over the age of 40 have seen an episode or 2 of M*A*S*H. The example of using the Bic Biro to make an emergency Airway by cutting into the persons throat WILL land you in the soft gooey brown stuff if it goes Pear shaped and you are not trained in that skill. thats fairly simple.
By helping someone, within the scope of your knowledge and experience or what would be expected of a "reasonable person" to do, then you're all good. if however, someone specifically asks you not to do something, or withdraws their consent for you to assist them (that could be withdrawing their arm as you try to do something) and you continue to force your "help" onto that person, then the protection afforded you under various State Good Samaritan legislation and the Wrongs Act evaporate. Another First Aid trainer wrote once that First Aid is 10% knowledge, 90% Common Sense. Heed that and you cant go wrong...........
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I would be hesitant to put any goo on broken skin, including a burn. Aloe Vera is unlikely to be sterile and egg protein (albumin I think, not collagen which is in connective tissue) will be an extra source of nourishment for infection.
Remember that we are talking about first aid here, which means that, unless we are in a remote area, our treatment only needs to get the patient through the first hour or so. Cool it down to minimise the thermal damage and cover it up to minimise the chance of infection.
As far as Glad Wrap is concerned, I don't see a problem with circumferential wrapping (around and around) rather than longitudinal. There is not going to be much swelling in that first hour and you can monitor for that. You don't need to apply it tightly and if you only use one or two layers it will stretch. It is so much easier to apply circumferentially and part of first aid is being able to act quickly and look like you know what you're doing.
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Yeah, but hang on - if the patient doesnt want an Ambulance, and was in a fit state to refuse said ambulance, how does the business owner get in the poo for that?? Perhaps he was fined for failing to keep a safe workplace (either due to the lack of forklift movement/pedestrian seperation or failing to have an appropriately trained first aider), but in the end, a person can decline an ambulance, and unless you think the person is unfit to refuse (confused, disoriented, severity of injury, effected by substances etc), all you are doing is wasting the Ambo's time if the person is just going to tell them to bugger off when they arrive!!! If the patient is making it plain they dont want an ambulance, there isn't much the ambos can do when they get there!! NOR can the business owner bundle the worker into their car and force them to go to a doctor or hospital, and force them to seek medical attention. Whilst it's sad the person in question died, but one of the benefits of being a human being is that you have the right to make decisions for yourself, and if someone relieves you of this right, that someone can be charged with assault and/or false imprisionment. Very extreme, but legally factual. You can offer, encourage, persuade and cojole, but you cant force, someone to seek medical attention.
See: http://www1.worksafe.vic.gov.au/vwa/vwa097-002.nsf/content/LSID164706-1
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In Victoria, The Mental Health Act allows you to detain someone who is suffering from "a mental condition" which is not defined, and convey them to hospital for further assessment. You will usually involve the police with this. The Crimes Act allows you to make a citizens arrest if you witness an inditable offense. You will always involve the police with this.
Apart from that, you dont have a power of arrest but will generally be OK if you act in good faith with the patient's interests at heart and act within your abilities or as a "reasonable person", and only limit their liberty to the minimum amount, if the patient is not capable of self care (eg drunk). .... but you might be judged later by others.
Also, you won't be criticised if you look after your own safety first. Don't put yourself at risk if they're aggro or violent.
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It would be good if there was a decent summary of all the legislation available.
I would like to know how the "good samaritans" legislation ties in with other (say workplace health & safety) legislation in regard to provision of Workplace first Aid.
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I may be wrong but I think Good Sammaritan law is Common Law (ie made by judges as the cases evolve over time) rather than Statute Law which comes from Acts of Parliament.
Have a look at http://www.austlii.edu.au/ to access both.
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Found this outline of the "Good Samaritans Act" from Vic Sport.
Not quite shure how/if it applies to paid First Aiders in the Workplace, but a good starting point.
http://www.vicsport.asn.au/Assets/Files/VicSport%20Guide%20-%20The%20Good%20Samaritan%20Act%20(protecting%20Volunteers).pdf
Cheers.
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It's true.......I may be wrong.
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Nah, youre right, it arises from tort law.
If you want a real headache:
http://www.ofaat.com.au/Images/documents/good_samaritans_volunteers.pdf
Keep up the good work!!
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great reference
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Now just need a ONE PAGE summary.
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could be 2002 but I thought it was later than that, oh well I dont study law I study OH&S and First Aid.
it is true that first aid is a stop gap, the role of a first aider is to ensure that the person is treated with respect whilst in the care of the first aider, it is also correct that the person being treated has the right to refuse treatment, where that person is unable to give the consent to being treated then they are assumed to have consented.
What annoys me is this belief that first aiders are not trained to support a person past the initial treatment. A good first aider can support and will support a person until other personnel are prepared to take over the legal care of the casualty. If I was conducting first aid and a Doctor arrived on the scene and told me to move over as they are a doctor, I would not do so, they would support me until an Ambo arrived and asked to take over. If the doctor was carrying a fully outfitted kit and was prepared to take over the legal ramifications of their actions out on the street then I would certainly be happy to move aside. One person CLAIMS to be something the other situation the person has every aspect of being what they claim, in court I know with the second situation that the person claiming to be a Doctor can be shown by me to have represented being a doctor, in the first I cant. Apart from that I probably know more about first aid than the Doctor does. He is a practiconer of medicine, without his kit he can only do the same as myself.
I also want to point out that although first aid training has degenerated into something that very few seem capable of doing, it still is a skill that when taught properly trains the individual to be capable of offering very good field support to give the best possible opportunity of life being maintained. Too often we hear instructors talk about all you need to do is do your best until an ambulance arrives, if that was true then you wouldnt need the course to begin with, the course is about teaching you to have the skills necessary to assess and manage the casualty until support arrives.
now as for the person suggesting cooking an egg on the persons arm, might I suggest that if you learnt that at a first aid course dont go back, if you didnt learn that at a first aid course then please dont teach it here as anyone practising that method is likely to be sued if something goes wrong.
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Question for the medics, if I may.
When you say "Cool the area, but don't overcool" - can you elaborate?
Example provided:
Couple of years ago we were camped out at Cobbold Gorge, 7hrs drive west of Cairns. Stupidly, I burnt my hand quite bad as we were packing up and I was putting out the camp fire. I figured it was pretty bad pretty quickly ;D. We had one of those "instant ice packs" in the first aid, but soon discovered it was worse than useless. BurnAid worked as you were putting it on, but not for much long after that.
So we rigged up an evap cooling system using a towel draped over the hand, the 20L water cooler between my legs, and the AC vent in the car. None of said stuff sterilised. The hand stung like #$^ all the way back to Cairns (J drove the whole way, thankfully), even with big painkillers. Every half hour I had to pull my hand out for a few minutes because it was turning blue. As the cold wore off the pain came back, so it went back under the wet towel. Stayed like that for the entire trip back, and it was only right towards the end of the trip that I was able to take my hand from under the cold without the pain being unbearable.
The hand healed really well - very minor blistering and pain over the next week, and now well and truly back to 100%. I've got a couple of Aloe plants at home for just such an occasion, so kept the hand soaking in that goop for a few days. Truth be told, it healed a lot quicker and a lot better than I was expecting, with very little pain.
I'm guessing that the "turning blue" bit probably qualifies it as being overcooled. And reading about the other stuff, I'm starting to think I could have handled things better.
So my questions for next time (people who know me, know that there will be a next time regardless of how careful I am) are:
* Did I potentially do more damage by doing this,
* What should I do different next time, and,
* I should really have gone to see my Dr once I got back to town, I'm guessing? That same day, or the next day?
Obviously what's done is done, but I'd like to find out for future.
Thanks!
Matto :)
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legislation covering first aid is best summed up here: http://www.lawhandbook.org.au/handbook/ch18s01s04.php#
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Patr8ol: the Good Samaritan act is Civil law, and as you say, is influenced by precedence etc.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/wa1958111/s31b.html (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/wa1958111/s31b.html)
This is of course Victorian Law.
Essentially, you can do reasonable things in a
The Wrongs Act 1958 (Vic) ("Wrongs Act") is the main legislation in Victoria governing claims for damages for personal injury (or resulting death) in Victoria, particularly in cases not involving transport accidents or work injuries.
"The Law Handbook", Fitzroy Legal Service, 2011, http://www.lawhandbook.org.au/handbook/ch18s01s04.php
and Doc, I'm with you on the gooey stuff on burns. I was always taught "Dont place goo on burns", with all sorts of "remedies" from butter to oils etc going around, i'd reckon the safest remote location treatment bet is Glad Wrap, cooling and transport to a Hospital that can deal with the situation. Upper Cumbuckta West bush nursing hospital is probably NOT that place (sorry if such a place exists..... making a point, not personally slandering anyone ;) ). Thats why the RFDS exist!!!!!
amaso57: I just read the summary of the finding by the Magistrate in the case of VWA Vs Pressfast Industries Pty Ltd as sited. Pressfast were charged with failing to maintain a safe workplace because they failed to keep proper seperation between forklifts and peds and not have a first aid plan (ie no currently trained first aider). the deceased was offered/encouraged to seek medical attention by staff and on lookers and declined on several occasions, although not by a first aider (not sure why first aider would have changed the pts decision though?? ). He is quite within his rights to do so if he chooses, depsite others not thinking it smart to do so. As Patr8ol said, if he isn't a mental pt an ambulance crew can not detain him for the purposes of receiving treatment. Police will not detain a person under Sec 10 of the mental health act (Vic) on the grounds that they require medical attention and are refusing. This is not seen to fit the criteria of "a mental condition" in and of itself, although may manifest with other acute psychiatric symptoms. It is a legal right, that of Autonomy (the right to decide for one's self), and is enshirned in the Human Rights acts and charters and is a fundamental tennant of Medical practice. It is also taught in First Aid courses.
It would seem that the director of the company, in following up with the worker, and then when he observed a deterioration in his condition made arrangments for him to be seen by a Doctor. Seeking medical attention for him was diligent, and there is no critisism (although IMHO this was inadequate, as a local GP would not have been equipped to deal with the potential injuries (no xray or CT/MRI etc), and a trained First Aider may have realised this and instead called an ambulance which could have conveyed him directly to an Emergency Department rather than to the GP, who would have then called the ambulance, thus adding in more time to the equation, which this man clearly did not have anyway
The Magistrate may have found that a "reasonable person" would consider making an appointment with a Doctor as seeking a higher level of care than that of a Paramedic. However it does not states WHEN that appointment was made for. Was it in an hour? 2 hours? The next day? All of which would have been too late for the deceased. As the Magistrates Court does not publish Court Transcipts we cant find out.
“This incident really brings home the importance of workplaces having a trained first aider on site at all times,” Mr Martin said.
Without accessing the entire finding it is hard to know, but it appears they did not even attempt to utilise the services of the first aider who's certificate was 20+yrs out of date.
“The only staff member with first aid training was certified in 1984, and wasn’t alerted until it was too late,”WorkSafe Victoria’s Strategic Programs Director Trevor Martin said.
In handing down his sentence, Magistrate Andrew Capell referred to the company’s decision not to seek help from the first aider, despite the expired certificate, as ‘outrageous’
“This incident really brings home the importance of workplaces having a trained first aider on site at all times,” Mr Martin said.
Hindsight always provides 20/20 vision. Its also easy to say now "oh they shuld have called an Ambulance straight away", however, depending on how the man presented, he may have still refused transport, and the Business would still have been prosectuted for failing to seperate forklifts and pedestrians anyway, and quite possibly for the failure to have a first aid plan (ie no trained first aiders). I"m pretty sure "just call 000" doesnt qualify as a valid first aid plan. A component of a plan? Yes. The whole plan? No. thats a whole other story...... but we digress......
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the fun of giving advice when your not there:) This is not constituting advice on that situation or any other situation specifically mentioned (hope that gets me out of the crap with the lawyers;))
I think you had the right idea, what I would do if I was in a case where I had a serious burn to the hand is cool with water, keep irrigated as best as possible allowing for the circumstances of the surroundings. I think if I had a 20 litre Jerry can and a towel I would keep the towel cool through the use of an air conditioner or similar whilst keeping the towel wet. Would I have bothered with glad wrap, yes I probably would have tried to keep the area sterile in case of infection (keep in mind water out of the tap isnt sterile either) but keeping it cool, then taking it out of the coolness on a regular basis until I reached hospital would have been my treatment. I cant suggest he aloe vera plant but I do have aloe vera for my use at home.
I dont believe going by the speed at which it healed you did any damage, I would be happy with a quick healing like that. What else could have been done. go to the doctor, they do know what they are doing despite us blokes having serious doubts about them sometimes especially when you get over 40;) any burn to the hand larger than a 20 cent piece should be checked out properly.
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Patr8ol: the Good Samaritan act is Civil law, and as you say, is influenced by precedence etc.
The civil/criminal law distinction is different to the common/statute distinction. Some Acts contain both civil and criminal bits (eg the Commonwealth Companies Act)
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Matto, the cool but dont over cool is more aimd at not cooling the whole pt so much they become hypothermic. Its hard to say if you did more harm than good, but if you had intact skin, probably not too much, but if you had actual burnt skin or popped blisters it could provide an anvenue for infection, which is one of the number 1 complications in burns, especially "minor" burns (ie not being put on a breathing machine type burns).
The pain is OFTEN a byproduct of nerves that are not normally exposed to hte air, being on cantact with the air. This is where the GLad WRap comes into its own. It provides a sterile (after you roll of a meter or so anyway)barrier that stops the raw nerve endings being in contact with the skin. It does not stick to skin so is fairly easy to remove later, and you can run cool water over it to assist with cooling. The idea of cooling is to stop any further damage from the skin cooking itself. So after 20-30 mins (20 is precibed in 1st aid texts) you are probalby ok. After that it may provide some relief from pain by cooling the area and contricting some blood vessels and reducing swelling. I would not apply an ice pack per se to a burn. The BurnAid Gel will provide short term relief for MINOR burns like sunburn etc where the skin is intact, and really isnt ideal where the skin had been compromised.
AFTER the skin has begun the heal, lotions like Vit E and aloe can apparently assist in improving skin elasticity, but the aftermath isnt my specialty.
I would seek a Dr if you had a burn that had broken skin if it was largeer than a 50c piece due to hte risk on infection, anything more significant than that is probably a hosptial job. Anything with redness and maybe an intact blister that size can usually be managed at home., If in doubt see your Doc! Any burn that invovles the entire circumfrence of a limb or digit should be seen at a hospital, preferably one that specilises in burns, but the local will refer you on if you need it, as this type of injury can have significant complications long term if not dealt with properly early on.
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Patr8ol: the Good Samaritan act is Civil law, and as you say, is influenced by precedence etc.
The civil/criminal law distinction is different to the common/statute distinction. Some Acts contain both civil and criminal bits (eg the Commonwealth Companies Act)
Yep. Silly me!! :-[ Maybe thats why i';m not a Lawyer ;)
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Common Sense: So Rare, it's a SuperPower
:cheers:
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I love all this legal stuff but I fear we have gone a little off topic!
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Thanks for the feedback guys - it's great to be able to pick the brains of the many and varied experts we have around here!
If I can pick up one piece of info a day on some topic, I'll be better off ;D.
Again, thanks!
Matto :)