MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: DANBRI on July 14, 2011, 06:22:03 PM
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Recently in our local paper I read an article that slammed recreational campers for 'eroding Stockton Beach'. Recreational campers eroding a beach - fancy that! The article was titled 'Beach loved to death'.
The National Parks stated that camping in it's current form is not sustainable. They will no doubt create a camping area that is roped off and removes all freedom of camping, pretty typical.
I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy bloody shins from trying to jump their stupid wooden barriers and wire roped camp grounds when I'm merry.
I responded:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6129/5935927753_6dd67a356a_b.jpg)
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Nice work, I like the bit about the councillor, vote :cup: Dan for PM
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;D Nice one Dan. Well said mate, i would have liked to hear their response to that :cheers:
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How about this?
When you come off Stockton, if you have a 3 day pass and present NPWS staff at either Lavis lane or Anna Bay with a minimum of a 20 litre bucket of rubbish, you get $5 cash back. 10 litres of broken glass gets the whole 3 day fee back.
If you have a year pass you get a part credit note for the next 12 month pass. Accumulate enough credit note and get 50% off you next 12 month pass.
Accumulate sufficient glass credit notes and get 1 year free access.
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How about this?
When you come off Stockton, if you have a 3 day pass and present NPWS staff at either Lavis lane or Anna Bay with a minimum of a 20 litre bucket of rubbish, you get $5 cash back. 10 litres of broken glass gets the whole 3 day fee back.
If you have a year pass you get a part credit note for the next 12 month pass. Accumulate enough credit note and get 50% off you next 12 month pass.
Accumulate sufficient glass credit notes and get 1 year free access.
sounds like one would get all that from Danbri's front yard >:D
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This is what happens when "educated" people who never venture off road, camp or dine outside the finest culinary establishments get positions in NPWS. They should only employ persons who actually camp themselves.
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10lts of broken glass eh??........ I can make some $$ outa this one ;D :cheers:
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10lts of broken glass eh??........ I can make some $$ outa this one ;D :cheers:
Needs to come with partial Tooheys New or VB stickers attached. Other glass will be recycled at the standard rate.
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I would start by providing some bins on the dunes - there's a couple logistical challenges but it can be managed.
For every one tonne of sand sold a sand mining company will pay a royalty to Worrimi (National Parks) around $22 a tonne sale price, $10 goes to Worrimi. Each miner is moving around 35,000 tonne per month - adds up...
What does our money pay for and where do the royalties from the sand mining companies go? The dollar figure in royalties accumulated each day will blow your mind.
If only journalism paid a reasonable wage. ;D
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This is unbelievable.
I have with like minded mates camp on the dunes plenty of times over the years and the quote that campers have a effect on the dunes is utter garbage. Yes some not so caring people may leave rubbish behind, but the majority of us will take our rubbish with us and even take others garbage with us!
Natural wind blown sand dunes will do what ever they want when they want.
They have already started to restrict our movements in the beach, now to go further - no comment.
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Great reply to the paper Dan. If only we all said our share when the wrong information is being printed.
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If only journalism paid a reasonable wage. ;D
Broady does own a Camprite... ;D
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Broady does own a Camprite... ;D
And you could claim all your new shiny camera gear as a good tax write off ;D
GG
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What surprises me about things like that is that it is not just one persons opinion. Probably more than 10 people agreed that campers cause beach degradation, in fact we tax payers probably funded a study on it.
How did they determine it was campers and not simply users? Fishers? Please keep us informed Dan.
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Broady does own a Camprite... ;D
Buit he's no longer editor of that magazine....
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i have never met someone that has written a letter to the editor before....
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This is what happens when "educated" people who never venture off road, camp or dine outside the finest culinary establishments get positions in NPWS.
Education is a lot more than an office and simulator.
We had a similar situation with a new young bloke that was 'educated people' from the parks at a fire we had back home.
Since the fire was in the park it was theirs to control... the bloke had never been to a running wild fire before, but learnt everthing on a simulator and controlled burns! THIS IS MINE, IM IN CHARGE HERE was his first words to us - ever...
So Dave the Captain said 'yea mate, shes all yours'.. told us to load up and lets go home :D
His attitude nearly changed as we drove off down the trail (only bluffing him), so we played his game. The bloke thought every fire was going to behave similarly like it did in simulation and how they were told... Dave let him play for round 2 hours as the fire ran on nicely, and then politely told him to watch, follow and learn. The bloke was still in shock 4-6 hours later as we mopped up :)
Nice article Dan, be interested to see what replies you get in the paper from that one :)
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hi Darren the letter writers are usually old people that listen to Allen Jones and ray
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Good stuff Dan.
I did a cleanup a few years ago and took out a couple of bags of rubbish.
No credit back then. :'(
This was an interesting trip a few years ago when a mate had to snatch a shopping trolley out of the dune wall in the 'bowl'.
Later he had to snatch a Rangie with low profile tyres, that could't get out.
Unfortunately the 'bowl' is now out of bounds. :'(
(http://members.iinet.net.au/~rwindeyer/w0791a1.jpg)
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snatch a shopping trolley out of the dune
Another Feral Trolley Captured ... now there's a whole other story.
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There was a little bit of discrete name calling in the OP so I thought I would have a bit of a look as well.
Here is the article
http://www.portstephensexaminer.com.au/news/local/news/general/stockton-beach-loved-to-death/2217682.aspx?src=rss
The point was made after a meeting to discuss the formulation of a draft plan of management - so there is still a lot of time for people to be involved in the final result. The ownership appears to be a bit complex and while the article is brief there is a recognition of the use of the area for camping.
There was also this piece that is basically a small statement of management and values, I don't know the author or how accurate it is but it seems to me to present a quick summary of Stockton.
http://www.mrstevennewman.com/geo/Stockton/Home/index.html
It seems Mr Newman is a teacher and this is the type of info he has/does present to his students.
I have been on both sides of the fence in these sorts of discussion and they do become quite emotive so I can only suggest that you get involved in the process because I can assure you that for every person who believes that there are no problems with unrestricted use there is someone else who wants no use at all - and generally both have legitimate reasons and concerns.
Geoff
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Extract
"Located between Newcastle in the south and Port Stephens in the north, the Stockton Bight sand dune area is an excellent example of an ecosystem at risk. It is susceptible to both natural and human-induced change.
The dunes and their highly specialised plant communities can be seriously degraded, or even destroyed, by natural causes (such as sea level change, storms, cyclones, droughts or fire) or by human interference (such as clearing, grazing, vehicles or excessive trampling)."
Cyclones? Not here except every 100 or so years
Drought? It is a SAND dune...
Fire? Again, it is a SAND dune...Localised, poorly cleaned up campfires excluded
"Their location directly behind beaches has made dunes a favoured location for coastal development."
Only if the traditional owners and the State Government allow it. Wouldn't be the first time though...
"This has seen them flattened, reshaped, mined, built on and in some cases removed entirely. It is only in the last 30 years that the value of coastal dune ecosystems has been recognised and the management of these unique places considered important."
Mining continues by permission of State government and the traditional owners
Reshaped? Yes, it is a MOVING sand mass...
Built on? Yes. Time required to remove said "Buildings"? 2 days for 10 men + equipment
Time for nature to erase all record of their existence? The next 2 or 3 big southerly blows.
Stockton in general requires changes to it's management for the good of the dunes. Everyone that has been there would support this.
However the charter for management must be a balanced one, not the way it is at the moment, there is control but not management, or the way the NPWS would like to see it become.
Sounds like committee time to me... ::)
Finally,
Mr Newman, If you are going to impart information, as you are a "teacher" try next time to provide a balanced argument to let your students form their own opinions.
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I thought the summary was a pretty reasonable interpretation of the situation and of dune systems in general.
I thought the news release was pretty straight forward for the beginning of a management plan and that was probably the reason for its release.
It seems to me that those responsible for the management of the area want to see the area managed in a way that recognises its values including the cultural value of camping. The process will be interesting because there will be quite a few interest groups, including vested interest groups, that will think their way is the best.
The management of a dune ecosystem is a bit more complex than the sandy bits with no vegetation, the fore and hind dunes areas are susceptible to many impacts as stated. As a general comment it is probably a good thing there has been Newcastle City Council and state government involvement over time, otherwise commercial interests may have destroyed all the values the area has.
It appears that you have already decided that the outcome will not be as you think it should be? I suggest you contact Mr Murphy and see how you can be involved in the process and present you opinions. The Plan of Management process takes time and effort, especially from the users of the area, including those who would prefer to see it closed up completely - this is how some sort of balance is achieved?
Stockton in general requires changes to it's management for the good of the dunes. Everyone that has been there would support this.
However the charter for management must be a balanced one, not the way it is at the moment, there is control but not management, or the way the NPWS would like to see it become.
As stated the are a number of groups who are responsble for the management of the area, generally the NPWS is the lead agency in these types of issues (as I guess somebody has to? and it is probably also in their legislative responsibilty).
If you have the opportunity to be involved in the process I really suggest you take that opportunity as it can be a rewarding process if one goes into it realising that there are different perspectives across the community who all have a valid position on what should happen.
NOTE: I did not use Mr Newman as an expert on the dunes, just that he came up first in a google search on the subject - all I saw him doing was providing others with some resources to assist them in whatever they were doing and that his style was easy reading.
So I have found a more authoritive link for dune management here
http://lep.planning.nsw.gov.au/pubDetails.cfm?thistopicid=576&PublicationID=223
I think SEPP 71 forms the main basis for any planning and there is also some additional information here
http://www.edo.org.au/edonsw/site/factsh/fs05_5.php
Who is the EDO?
http://www.edo.org.au/
Sorry about the lengthy reply.
ADMIN question
As an aside, if you have read this far, how can I make the "reply" box bigger so that it does not keep cutting off the reply as it is typed?
Geoff
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ADMIN question
As an aside, if you have read this far, how can I make the "reply" box bigger so that it does not keep cutting off the reply as it is typed?
Geoff
Its getting worked on in the background as we speak
GG
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Not targeting Mr Newman, merely an example of the fact that a balanced argument is required, that there are improvements to be made without "locking the gates".
One thing I will say though, Quaddies getting through the scrub when it is quite obviously wired off to reduce damage to the forest.
Many hectares of dunes to play on legally, unfortunately this type of use does not do the recreational use argument any favours whatsoever. >:(
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Not targeting Mr Newman, merely an example of the fact that a balanced argument is required, that there are improvements to be made without "locking the gates".
One thing I will say though, Quaddies getting through the scrub when it is quite obviously wired off to reduce damage to the forest.
Many hectares of dunes to play on legally, unfortunately this type of use does not do the recreational use argument any favours whatsoever. >:(
I just read his info again and there is, IMO, no preference given to "lock them out", the information appears strsaight forward and accurate, he provides a number of alternatives and management options and is pretty balanced in his views.
Here is the news release copied from the link above and it also makes no reference to locking anyone out
CAMPING areas along Stockton Beach are being "loved to death" according to the National Parks and Wildlife Service's Mick Murphy, who says the culturally significant site is threatened.
The Hunter Coast area manager said camping in its current form in sections of the Worimi Conservation Lands was unsustainable and changes would needed to protect the dunes from erosion.
His comments follow a recent meeting to discuss the impact camping had on the conservation lands as part of preparation for the area's draft plan of management.
"Basically we had the meeting to determine how to manage recreational use and impact on the land," Mr Murphy said.
"Everyone agrees that camping in its current form can't continue.
"But there has been a value placed on camping and recreational use of the land.
"At the moment there is a 26 kilometre stretch of land that is 100 metres wide from the high-tide mark where people can camp wherever.
"In peak periods you can have around 1000 people camping overnight and 3000 day visitors.
"It's basically a small town out there."
He said options such as managed camping, designated camping areas and capping the number of people that use the recreational area at any given time were being considered.
I do agree that people who do the wrong thing definitely cause restrictions being placed on the majority, so it is in everyones interest to do the right thing. First time that I had heard of a reward system being in place for the removal of glass - glass must have been a major issue for that to have been put in place?
ADMIN - pleased the "reply box" issue is being looked at :-)
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I can't see how the two issues are linked: Campers leaving rubbish and erosion of dunes, I believe the article to be misleading.
I would like to understand in greater detail how recreational campers errode a natural dune system.
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This has more to do with the Port Stephens Shire Councils caravan parks missing out on revenue due to people camping, for basically free, on Stockton beach than it does with eco management of the area imo.
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Perhaps NPWS should talk to the people who manage Fraser Island - they seem to have a reasonable idea of what they are doing.
Something certainly needs to be done to ensure people dont leave their rubbish on the beach. We have in the past taken friends onto the beach who dont own 4WD's and therefore cant get on to the beach, to show them what a great place it is and we find that we are constantly apologising for other people leaving their rubbish on the beach.
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I can't see how the two issues are linked: Campers leaving rubbish and erosion of dunes, I believe the article to be misleading.
I would like to understand in greater detail how recreational campers errode a natural dune system.
I would guess it's to do with those campers driving up and down and playing in the dunes, obviously some are doing damage to the vegetation in some areas.
It may not look like there is vegitation on dunes, just a few bits of grass here and there, which to the average person means nothing and that playing in the dunes is not doing damage, but to the people who know the ecoligy of the dunes, to them they are.
I don't think people realise the amount of field studies done by NPWS in places like this, I can tell you there are a lot and it's not only flora and errosion that is studied.
Baz.
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I would guess it's to do with those campers driving up and down and playing in the dunes, obviously some are doing damage to the vegetation in some areas.
But still, that is drivers, not campers. One's sleeping arrangements seem irrelevant to dune degradation or rubbish disposal.
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This has more to do with the Port Stephens Shire Councils caravan parks missing out on revenue due to people camping, for basically free, on Stockton beach than it does with eco management of the area imo.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2422/3777084698_a7ef4bf328.jpg)
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I would guess it's to do with those campers driving up and down and playing in the dunes, obviously some are doing damage to the vegetation in some areas.
It may not look like there is vegitation on dunes, just a few bits of grass here and there, which to the average person means nothing and that playing in the dunes is not doing damage, but to the people who know the ecoligy of the dunes, to them they are.
I don't think people realise the amount of field studies done by NPWS in places like this, I can tell you there are a lot and it's not only flora and errosion that is studied.
Baz.
I've read the EIS (Environmental Impact Statements) for the areas mining - their activity has significant impacts, not camping or even 4wding in comparison.
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But still, that is drivers, not campers. One's sleeping arrangements seem irrelevant to dune degradation or rubbish disposal.
I assuming the drivers are campers as well, camped there for the weekend or similar.
Obviously some are doing enough damage for them to notice, it's a no brainer to know that mining is doing the most damage, but if it came down to closing areas off, I'm guessing campers will suffer, I can't see them stopping mining.
Baz.
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I can't see how the two issues are linked: Campers leaving rubbish and erosion of dunes, I believe the article to be misleading.
I would like to understand in greater detail how recreational campers errode a natural dune system.
Have a read here.
http://lep.planning.nsw.gov.au/pubDetails.cfm?thistopicid=576&PublicationID=223
I suggest it is a bit more complex than just rubbish and campers though I guess if you accept the figures presented of 1000 camps and 3000 people and only 1% of these did the wrong thing, how easy it would be to cause significant damage to the area.
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I've read the EIS (Environmental Impact Statements) for the areas mining - their activity has significant impacts, not camping or even 4wding in comparison.
I agree but it is whether or not there is any legal recourse to prevent the mining?
However, without active management there is nothing to say the impacts over time won't be similar. The impacts of mining are very visible as they happen in a very short period of time. I guess it depends on what sort of environment you want in the area when your grandkids are using that same area?
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For all those that are interested in attending - the Worimi Conservation Lands' meeting in August will cover the camping issue. Here is the link (http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/protectedareas/20110261StocktonBight01.pdf) to their newsletter - see the second page for details!
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Have a read here.
http://lep.planning.nsw.gov.au/pubDetails.cfm?thistopicid=576&PublicationID=223
I suggest it is a bit more complex than just rubbish and campers though I guess if you accept the figures presented of 1000 camps and 3000 people and only 1% of these did the wrong thing, how easy it would be to cause significant damage to the area.
Having been there a few times, I can imagine alot more than 3000 on a busy day, although a 1000 camping might be a bit of a stretch.
These numbers could be reasonably close to the mark.