MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: terravista on January 28, 2011, 10:08:21 AM
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Hi all.
I have the occasional need to weld, and have a relatively cheap electric "stick" welder that uses two size welding rods (for memory 2.5mm and 3.5mm).
I can easily manage to burn holes in steel with the thinner rods, and glue the thicker rods to steel, usually seconds before the power cuts out.
I have a carpentry background, and limited knowledge with metalwork.
What I would like to do is weld thin metal to either thin or thicker metal, like attachments to trailer sides etc. without burning holes, and splattering little hot bits everywhere.
Would a sub $500 Mig or Tig welder do this if they exist?
What is Mig and Tig?
What does gas or gasless mean when it comes to welding?
Should I just learn to use my current welder better?
Are there easier to use brands or types of welding rods available, or are they pretty much all the same?
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers
Ian
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Let me start by saying there are plenty of guys and girls on here that are more skilled with a stick than I but here goes anyway. ;D
Hi all.
I have the occasional need to weld, and have a relatively cheap electric "stick" welder that uses two size welding rods (for memory 2.5mm and 3.5mm).
I can easily manage to burn holes in steel with the thinner rods, and glue the thicker rods to steel, usually seconds before the power cuts out.
I have a carpentry background, and limited knowledge with metalwork.
What I would like to do is weld thin metal to either thin or thicker metal, like attachments to trailer sides etc. without burning holes, and splattering little hot bits everywhere.
Buy a good quality Mig (Metal Inert Gas) These use either a flux cored wire in gasless form or Argoshield gas( or a variation thereof) for gas machines. They use a gas shield around the weld pool to stop impurities wrecking the weld.
Would a sub $500 Mig or Tig welder do this if they exist?
Cheap gasless migs 2nd hand but TIG (Tungsten inert Gas) dont exist. You can however get a sub $500 DC inverter stick welder that is MUCH easier to weld with than your AC box.
What is Mig and Tig?
See above
What does gas or gasless mean when it comes to welding?
See above
Should I just learn to use my current welder better?
Practise makes perfect but you will battle. Keep your rods dry, no really dry as in an old oven or other hot box. Keep a good ground connection on your AC box, match the rods to the metal thickness and thin rods = low current and vice versa.
Are there easier to use brands or types of welding rods available, or are they pretty much all the same?
Check the codes at your supplier, GP type rods are best to learn on. Current too low = sticking rods and spatter. Current too high = holes and undercut welds. There are variations on this but these are the most basic principles.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers
Ian
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May I suggest doing a welding short course at your local TAFE/Community College first. I did one last year and we did Stick and MIG over 8 week. It was a really good course.
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Hi Terravista,
This post title has my name written all over it ;D
I'm not a good welder by any stretch of the imagination, but I did a night course (Certificate I) down at the local TAFE last year which I found to be great. They introduce you to different types and applications of welding and cutting with all the basic theory (and safety) for different systems. The course was probably 20% theory and 80% hands on which meant that by the end I'd literally done hundreds and hundreds of welds using different materials and welding gear in different positions. All with a qualified and experienced instructor to tell you where you're going wrong/right. Was also great to break welds on the press and have someone point out flaws in the weld and why they were happening (You learn pretty quickly that a weld which looks OK from the surface isn't always sound underneath :-[). I can't recommend doing something like this more highly to anyone who wants to improve their welding. It was one night (3hrs) a week for a semester and from memory cost in the vicinity of $250. The price is offset by the fact that I met some blokes with welding gear that I couldn't possibly afford who are happy to let me come over and use it whenever I need to.
In my experience as far as cheap welding units go, the cheaper they are, the harder they are to knock out a decent weld with consistently (experienced welders could probably use one without a problem). So it might be a false economy to dish out the few hundred (??) dollars to buy a cheap gasless MIG that will be a PITA to use versus a more expensive unit which you would enjoy using and so probably get more use out of. In my case bludging off others has worked out pretty well and I always make sure to drop off the odd case of beer to keep everyone happy.
Another option might be to see if there is a group in your area who share gear. There is a 'blokes shed' in town here where you can get access to communal equipment (and probably advice), although I haven't ever been there. This might be an alternative for anyone (like me) who can't justify spending the 000's for the amount of welding they do. There are some excellent and very experienced welders on the forum (judging by the quality of some of the work) who can probably offer a lot more/better advice. For my money you can't beat enrolling in a basic welding course.
Good luck.
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Great info guys.
Cheesoid, do you have the official name of the course you did at TAFE?
I've been looking at their website and it's a bit confusing.
cheers
mike
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Schmik, I did this eight week course through the North West Community college (http://www.nwcollege.net/index.php?action=course&course_action=detail&code=111W09MM), this one run at Model Farms High School.
It was pretty good.
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Sweet! Hopefully they run all year, i can't get to the first run of it. I've got 3 more weeks at work and then 10 weeks OFF! (8 in the CT)
mike
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Many thanks for the responses.
It looks like I may have to back to school, but at least I won't have to take any krap from a teacher.
I have seen the guys welding on shows like American Choppers and the like, and they just pick up a welder, virtually point it at the steel, and get a nice continuous weld. Obviously the welding machines are good quality, but it looks a lot easier.
Have to look for a local tool sharing shed also.
Thanks
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This was the course I did (correction: not Cert 1, but units will count towards certification if you go on)
http://www.swtafe.vic.edu.au/coursefinder/displaybrochure.aspx?id=803 (http://www.swtafe.vic.edu.au/coursefinder/displaybrochure.aspx?id=803). It should be under engineering training courses on the local TAFE (or similar) website.
they just pick up a welder, virtually point it at the steel, and get a nice continuous weld
haha, makes you sick watching a good welder going at it when you're struggling to run a straight line doesn't it :laugh:
Just practice, practice and more practice I spose.
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Hi TV
IMO you are FAR better off with a mig than a stick welder for home use. A MIG will allow you to get down to very thin sheet metal that you find in trailers and such, as well as thick steel you find on things like trailer chassis' and such.
(Lets call gas welding Argo (for argoshield) so it doesnt get confusing)
Gasless MIG wire is used where the Argo would blow away and not shield the work. Mainly outdoors doing fabwork (gateposts etc).
Gasless is never as nice to use as Argo with more splatter and the welds dont seem to be as neat. (will still be 100000000000000000000000000 times better than the stick on thin stuff.)
If you want to use Argo then you will need to use disposable cartridges or hire a bottle from CIGTHIEVES and that will cost about $160 a year for the bottle hire and about $90 to fill it up.
I bought a Minimig 150 about 15 years ago and have built at least six trailers, a shed, benches and lots of jobs for mates with it. It would be about $450 or so I think nowadays. I have run it on Gasless for the last ten years and have finally put it in semi retirement and bought a new Weldmaster 180 for $690.00 and it is a sweet ride.
A course is a great idea though you dont need to do it first. There are some people who pick up the skills real quick just playing around and others that need formal instruction. Probably just how we are wired.
So if I were you, and you are not welding pressure vessels, then i would get a Mig that is a name brand one (parts) and is at least 150AMP and can do gas or argon. Take it home, have a play, and do a course when you can. Gasless wire is known to cause a build up of crud in the coax where it feeds through the gun but I havent had that problem.
You may also want to search over at the metalwork section on Woodwork Forums (ubeaut). There is a good chap called graeme that is knowledgable on welding. You could also say hello to RSSR and Burnsy while you are there ;D
Here are two trailer builds done with a 150 amp on gasless wire;
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f184/plant-trailer-bobcat-72023/
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f184/trailer-build-62544/
The first one was lent to a mate to move his bobcat with and was way heavier than mine. He positioned it right at the back not in the middle and bent the frame. No welds cracked. So it can be done!
Have fun!
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I used to be able to punch out damn good welds on a stick welder, but since using a mig for the last 5 years or so, the stick will only get used for bush repairs via a genset.
Near impossible to get a decent stick weld on thin panels and stuff, to hot you blow holes, to lower amp it will stick and hum like a swarm of bees. >:(
A welding course is a good investment, then just go to your local steel joint and see if you can rumage through all their left overs and go hell for leather and weld up any thing and everything for practise.
Bottle rental is a rip off, it costs me $500 a year to have 2 small oxy bottles and a small mig bottle in my shed before I even use them.
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Bottle rental is a rip off, it costs me $500 a year to have 2 small oxy bottles and a small mig bottle in my shed before I even use them.
At least they could have hookers serving you - cause your getting scrooooooooood anyway >:(
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I've had a gas mig for years and can't weld for s..t. I've applied to do a basic welding course at the local tafe through the internet more times that I care to remember, but never have got a reply. there must be to many applicants.
Bert
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lol bert, must have been you that put the 'upgrades' on my trailer. Please keep calling. ;D
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I'm a chippy by trade also, about 3 years ago did a bit of an intro / beginners welding course and the quality of my welding increased massively. We did a bit of work with stick welders, mig and oxy. Think we did 4 hours per week for 8 or 10 weeks. Learnt heaps.
One of the guys at the 4wd club organised a group of us, went to the TAFE and they ran a course specially just for the 8 of us. I would have to dig up the certificate but I think the subjects were part of a farming course so we just did those topics without the rest of the course.
Recommend it 100%
:cheers:
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When I did my welding test at tech,later to be known as TAFE, the teacher, bless her heart, that's right fellas, a girl, worst still, a pom. She worked for BP on gas/oil rigs in the middle east and in the sea of the coast os Scotland...but man could she make that rod sing....
Anyway, for our test, forget the theory crap..yeh, it does help, but what we had to do, was on a 20 tonne I girder, suspended 20 feet above the ground, we had to write our names on the under side of the girder, but the signing had to be Running Writting. If you had a small name, she gave you a longer one, or "The quick brown fox..."
Points were deducted for sticking, burning and flaxing, taking your mask off to check your work etc
It might seem stupid, but try signing your name, balancing on a ladder 20ft above the ground, signing your name on the underside of a girder, holding your mask on...man, the OH&S boys would have a field day.
I passed, but I still can't weld..like the pros...there unbelievable.
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i dont have any trouble using a stick welder on trailers and the like, patching a motorboke exhause on the other hand is definitely tig territory.
mig does most stuff as well, gasless mig is crap and not worth it,
if you have a stick welder have a nice piece of thick iron handy to place a little bead on with new sticks to heat em up a bit, stops them sticking, also for fine stuff do a tiny bit at a time and let the parent metal cool down, chip slag away and go again, a pain an the ass compared to mig but does the job. also for cheap welders they have a very low duty cycle so make sure you have plenty of other things to do while waiting for the machine to cool down .
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Some good beginers info here [url]http://www.mig-welding.co.uk//url]
and here [url]http://www.woodworkforums.com/f160/welding-lessons-grahame-collins-97286//url]
You may have to sign up for the Woodwork Forum, they have a metal work sub forum that has a trailer & fabrication section. Great knowlegable forum if you want to modify your trailer or build a drifta style kitchen.
Cheers,
Paul
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Another thing to remember is that welding is only a very small part of the "Metal joining process".
The first thing I get my apprentices to learn before picking up a welder is the material science of common metals : both ferrous & non ferrous. This gives them the knowledge of how the materials are produced and how they react to the "welding process".
Only then are they able to fully comprehend how the metal reacts in the "welding" of a metal component, and how to choose the correct weld and technique to perform that weld.
The second thing is to learn how to positional weld, this is a very handy skill when doing a weld that is not in a controlled environment such as on a welding bench at a TAFE collage ;D
Even with the best welding equipment in the world, choosing the wrong weld technique, preparation, and the wrong weld type for a given material and propose is extremely dangerous with massive consequences.
Trust me I see it alot in the mining industry. ;D
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Terravista is asking for some basic welding advice. ie. how to weld small stuff to big stuff in terms of his CT. I'm sure advice along those lines would be much appreciated.
Cheese.
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Even with the best welding equipment in the world, choosing the wrong weld technique, preparation, and the wrong weld type for a given material and propose is extremely dangerous with massive consequences.
Very true, this was another thing I picked up from the course I did. I didn't learn all the answers but am aware that there are such issues so can research and have an idea of what to look for. Also a reason why I will not weld to certain things such as chassis rails... I know the limitations of my knowledge. Prior to the course I used to think that welding was just sticking two bits of metal side by side and applying heat and filler...
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Terravista is asking for some basic welding advice. ie. how to weld small stuff to big stuff in terms of his CT.
Cheese.
Sorry Cheese but that was pretty basic advise.
This is one of the problems with welding. Joining two different sizes of material to each other, ensuring both have the correct penetration without jeopardising the strength characteristics of the two materials. Without the correct knowledge of the material your welding you are venturing into a dangerous situation with big consequences.
Any repital welding course should always start with safety 1st and material science 2nd.
Just an indication, our Fitter & Turner / Boilermakers apprentices "welding course" in there first year alone, is an 8 week (5 day week) block. This is the "Introduction to welding" course, and then progresses from there to the more advanced skills.
I understand that the average DIY person doesn't need to know the skills of a tradesperson but IMO
it doesn't hurt to be competent with the essential basics.
Bnk08
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Terravista is asking for some basic welding advice. ie. how to weld small stuff to big stuff in terms of his CT. I'm sure advice along those lines would be much appreciated.
Cheese.
Grab a mig, a helmet, gloves, some wire and go crazy!
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Me learning to weld
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Did the dogs bowl have a crack :cheers:
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Me learning to weld
So the cardboard box was to entertain onlookers ;D
Anyway, one of the best things I did to improve my crap welding skills, was to buy the auto dark welding shields, it's amazing how just getting the weld started properly, helps you finish it off properly.
So now I am a little bit more confident, which helps a lot, turned a crap welder into an ordinary welder :cup:
This was my first project ;D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/bazzar/Discomods010.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/bazzar/Discomods007.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/bazzar/Discomods008.jpg)
All the bends were cut and weld, I amazed myself AND a mate who reckoned someone else did it ;D
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Hi
Bink08 said
"This is one of the problems with welding. Joining two different sizes of material to each other, ensuring both have the correct penetration without jeopardising the strength characteristics of the two materials. Without the correct knowledge of the material your welding you are venturing into a dangerous situation with big consequences.endquote"
All amateurs should take heed!
Like oil, all steels are not steel[mild]
Weld some steels with the wrong electrode or preheat & you could have a serious failure @ an inopportune time.
SOME steels are almost unweldable without extra special care & treatment
Peter
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I've inherited my dads really old CIG arc (stick) welder it'll use rods of different sizes from1.8-3.6 and has no ajustments just bang in the rod and away you go ( got to love the huge copper core) I did a course 20 odd years ago, dad was an old school panel beater and spray painter, I grew up in his work shop and learned how to use oxy at about 10 yrs old 8) braising, sweating, fusing, shrinking etc......
it all comes down to practice and practice some more and more and more...and then some more ;D
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Hi all this is an interesting post,i to have looked at doing a tafe course for welding ,it is over 5 weeks 2 nights a week at a cost of 89.00 per module they cover gas ,arc, mig & tig .My late father was a welder but i became a carpenter every time i tried to weld he would be there and just come across and gently grab the arc handle and say ill do it .He was one who taught himself after they came from england after the war and he was one of those who could just point it at metal and do an amazing job .I have got an old transarc tradesman variable amp settings and a cig trans mig and i still cant weld for s.....t .One of the welders at work said that once i have done the course and see what i am doing wrong then i will get better ,where my wife is from they dont use sheilds they just close there eyes or use sunnys unbeleivable ,a ot of the welds are to .
crispy
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Hi Terra
Go the tec corse im going to do one when i get around to it
I bought a mig & found this web site to get me goin
hope u or anybody else will find it interesting
cheers sheeds
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/learning-mig.htm
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luv what redback has done ,did my cargo barrier in the back the same way. for my two cents worth if you are going to weld two thin(0.9 -3.2) wall thickness and you are not sure about your capabilities,grab a big electrode 3.2mm, crank it up to140-180 amps (if possible). it might be hard to visualise, but do the tack weld for a short burst, so the tack looks twice the size of the electrode thru the welding lens, and will look like a big round tack. if you do it ,so that the electrode is square to the workpiece, the electrode will be concave .(its very hard to type and visualise what i am trying to explain). the idea is that you do a tackweld, move 20-30mm do another tackweld,keep doing this along the length of the work piece, clean each tackweld, then start backtracking and start to overlay each tackweld as you move along. the idea is, use a bigger electrode turn it up so you get a 4-6mm tack really quickly, than if you used a smaller electrode to get to get the same size tackweld,(more heat). you can also do this with the smaller electrodes, turn them up and do a series of short tackwelds to join thin materials. the theory is that you get a quick hot tack.as against a slow very hot weld on thin material. have a crack the worst that can happen is that you have to do it again . if you live in the sth eastern suburbs (melb) be more than happy to show you most welding techniques cheers@beers Graham
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i dont have any trouble using a stick welder on trailers and the like, patching a motorboke exhause on the other hand is definitely tig territory.
mig does most stuff as well, gasless mig is crap and not worth it,
I am not a great welder but I can hold my own. I do not agree that a gasless mig is crap. I have both gas mig (3 phase 275 amp) and gasless ( single phase 200 amp) as well as a stick inverter ( single phase 210 amp) each machine has its good and bad points. With the gasless there is more splatter to clean after the weld but when outside the workshop/shed the gasless will perform better than gas as the gas from a gas mig can be blown away from the weld by the wind . Both types of mig welder will give you a great weld, horses for courses. cheers duggie.
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I was an average welder to say the least with my stick welder that dad gave me ,it was 1980 circa, recently bought a weldmaster and you would think I am a new person now .Still not the best but its really unbelivable how the right tools even in an amatures hands do a better job.
My advice as has been posted ,buy a decent mig a roll of wire and cut loose, I bought my mig from a welding/oxy shop and the guy new his stuff, came with a 1 hr lesson upon pick up , and I was away. best thing I ever did. If you buy from a tool shop ask for a demo and if they can't do it shop elsewhere as there are specialist shops who sell this stuff.
Now I look for things to weld just for fun.
jetcrew :D
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I offer my thanks for all the information given so far. Mostly informative, and a lot of experience shared.
Cheers
Ian
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Hey fellow welding Swaggers , looking at getting a welder for little jobs ie 9kg Gas bottle oz pigs etc. I know you get what you pay for have a few power tools from this brand and they seem to hold up for their price . Also have a 200 dollar bunning gift card so only looking at 200 outlay. Have had a look on ebay and places but feel with a 3 year warranty and good at any bunnings . Am I wasting my money or is this good for small jobs , not going to build a trailer just stuff around. ??? Thanks for feedback in advance
:cheers: Digger
135Amp OZITO MWR-135 Gas/Gasless MIG Welder
I/N: 6290149
$399.00 Each
Price correct as at Saturday, 18 June 2011 03:15:01 PM
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Hey fellow welding Swaggers , looking at getting a welder for little jobs ie 9kg Gas bottle oz pigs etc. I know you get what you pay for have a few power tools from this brand and they seem to hold up for their price . Also have a 200 dollar bunning gift card so only looking at 200 outlay. Have had a look on ebay and places but feel with a 3 year warranty and good at any bunnings . Am I wasting my money or is this good for small jobs , not going to build a trailer just stuff around. ??? Thanks for feedback in advance
:cheers: Digger
135Amp OZITO MWR-135 Gas/Gasless MIG Welder
I/N: 6290149
$399.00 Each
Price correct as at Saturday, 18 June 2011 03:15:01 PM
I've got the same welder branded differently. It's ok for limited use, the handpiece is rubbish and it seems to drag the wire resulting in slow wire feed. The on/off switch on mine has also packed it in. When I get another I will spend more to get a better quality unit, But this one has done the job so far.